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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 8, 2010, 11:25 AM
Game #1: 18. K6, K3 19. L5 Black resigns.
Very nice Rollie. I think black can resign here since losing on captures is now inevitable with the threat of white extending to H8. I looked at trying for a keystone attack or even some sort of soft block at H8, but that would require extending to J8, which is unavailable due to the white stones on the top of the formation. Wisely NOT playing the unnecessary M10 along the way allowed for the possibility of white winning at J10 if black should try to extend to J8. Black is also one capture short of winning by captures no matter how you slice it. A longer game, about 24 moves to finish it out and there were likely faster ways to do it, but a solid win for white despite the appearance of losing the initiative along the way.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on this game. Also, if you could include your thoughts on the term "initiative" and whether it should apply to the situation black found itself in on move 9. There was no forcing move and for black to respond to and so black was able to try some forcing moves of its own and seemed to be in control for at least a half dozen moves, when in reality nothing black could have tried would have resulted in a victory by forcing moves. So, did black have the "initiative" at this point or not? There was a long recent thread debating this idea, and others, in the Analysis section of the forums and I was just curious how you view situations like this.
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 9, 2010, 2:29 AM
GAME #1 ALT
GAME #6
Black resigns. I would have preferred to see this one played out a bit further since we are just getting out of the opening. Rollie feels that after capturing, if white plays the tria and then plays a building move to N4 that black has inadequate defense for that formation. If this is the expected move, I would think there are some creative ways to at least keep it interesting, such as not taking the capture and just blocking at M7 or playing a move like N8 in response to N4, or something. It is likely that the players already looked at these possibilities and see that they are futile and so the game ends before it really gets going based on the strength of the opening. -- up2ng
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 9, 2010, 3:29 AM
Apologies for my sporadic attendance recently. The deadline I have on the 15th is rapidly approaching. I'll write more soon in reply to previous posts. For now:
GAME 1 (ALT)
12) J10, K9*, 13) L10, M10 14) M8
zoeyk, I'm going to resign GAME 6. Black has nothing. After 5)...K11* 6) K7, M7, I guess you can simply play 7) N4. excellent refutation of Black's 2nd move throughout, including all diagrammed examples, etc. Thanks.
up2ng and zoeyk, I cannot imagine any of the players of your guy's caliber, having 30 minutes on the clock, ever losing as White. The only chance for Black, I still believe, lies in the Wedge. If you are up for it, I'll play the Black side of the Wedge against each of you, to see if you can demonstrate forced wins for White. I have something new to try, beginning with ...
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 9, 2010, 9:30 AM
I was wondering when R3 would join the fun I will say that rich has been one of the major pioneers in modern line trail blazing, and is well educated in old school moves too. so if he says N7 is the way then i'll believe it to be probably true. i have added a board for rich vs rollie. good to have u back R3.
and, my guess is up2ng will feel the need now to pick a different 8th than what me and rich chose lol. mine for sure is the most common choice, so i guess i was being a pansy to do the comfortable and familiar way, i guess if it ain't broke don't fix it, unless fixing it makes it more interesting that is. or if it finds a shorter win it can be another good reason too.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 9, 2010, 9:34 AM
i been a long way away from addressing all the lines here, only cause i been burnt out way bad, and other causes, but I been a looking at some. Jeez, its nice to see rollie here making us look again at the freaking lines we all freaking pooped upon over the years.
jeez i feel good.
yours truly, r3
Message was edited by: richardiii at May 9, 2010 5:41 PM
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 9, 2010, 5:53 PM
Hi Rollie, looking forward to more detailed comments from you about the lines we've explored so far.
I'm not sure that it's quite time to resign GAME 6 from how it looks right now. The game is still so early. I supposed you've looked at it more deeply and see how it is going, but I'm just not sure it's so clear that black should resign already.
I agree with you that Player 1 has a demonstrable advantage to the point that a strong player "should" always win from that side. However, as zoey has mentioned, this is much more pronounced in analysis discussions and turn-based play than it would be in a more typical 20 minute live game. I believe the top players in turn-based play have over 98% success rate as Player 1, even against other top players. However, I'm not active in turn-based play right now so perhaps others will have more reliable statistics about this. In live play this is usually much lower against top players -- perhaps only 80 - 90% success as Player 1. The likelihood of making a mistake in turn-based play is greatly reduced, although it does still happen occasionally. For example, I recently played a mini-tournament, turn-based, against two top 5 caliber players here at this site. Playing two sets against each player I managed to win as black once against each. If we were to have another of these tournaments with the same players, it might go the other way around. So, it is still possible although in general Player 1 is going to win nearly every time.
As for what Player 2's "best" chance is ... I don't believe it's the Wedge at this point. The Wedge has been studied to death to the point of memorization by many top players and it's very unlikely to come up with something new to actually tip the scales -- the position is just too familiar. The better approach is to come up with something complex that is also very unfamiliar to increase the chance for error.
But, it will still be fun to play out some Wedge games. I'm not sure that richardiii was suggesting that N7 is necessarily the best 8th move, I think he was just posing a question to the group for analysis. Even so, it would be interesting to see him play it out from there even if that would not be his normal play. (Don't mind richard, btw, he has a "unique" personality in the forums.)
For me, I'm with zoey that I would normally play 8. O6. I believe we have you to thank for that move Rollie! Although I think you originally came up with it in response to a different 7th move, it also works out well in this position.
But, as zoey has predicted, just for fun I will play something else. I will try something that is not even in the database! I have not overanalyzed this move, it's more of a spur of the moment thing -- this should give you a fighting chance, and likely even an advantage. So, let's see what happens if I play ...
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 10, 2010, 1:11 AM
Hi richardiii,
Glad to see you here, and thanks also for the nice email. Humor is in fact the only thing that I can sense anymore
GAME 9
The position we are in is pretty much where old-school Pente opening strategy was at when it ended 25 years ago. Dusting off cobwebs and looking at things fresh, I'll try the following first:
