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Topic: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Replies: 175   Views: 271,279   Pages: 12   Last Post: May 25, 2010, 6:21 AM by: up2ng

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rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 13, 2010, 8:57 AM

up2ng,

GAME 8

Your innovative M6, followed by your excellent O4, come like a bolt from the blue. I'm not seeing anything to save Black after your M6. If so, then Black's L8 is busted. There are a few other tries that I was eager to try against your M6, but eventually I found direct wins in each of them for you. Some came close however.

I originally intended to play 10) ... M5, but I found a forced win for you, so I switched to N10, which seemed to be working if you played eventually at N5, but you saw deeper than that. O4 crushes. Well done.

I'll write more this weekend, and decide the best way to resolve this game, as well as me catching up on a few other games.

Is richardiii still playing?

Rollie


zoeyk

Posts: 2,043
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 13, 2010, 1:18 PM

Rollie, your solution is good, and optimal.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 14, 2010, 2:05 AM

Thanks Rollie! It's hard to put a finger on why a move like 8. M6 might work when at first glance it looks just terrible. But I agree, after looking at it for a bit I could not see anything that black could try in response that did not have an answer for white.

I'll look forward to your final thoughts on this one and on the Wedge opening in general after the rest of the games are concluded -- including your thoughts about the more common 8. O6 that zoey is playing out. That's the way I've seen white approach this opening for a while now, although I cannot ever remember seeing 8 ... O10 so it will be fun to see how that goes.

rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 14, 2010, 3:05 AM

zoeyk,

In one of your rare loses as White in turn-based play, Novatis employed an interesting defense that I thought had been busted back in the 80's, but maybe not? It was your game played on 12/31/09.

Did you analyze this later and find a winning improvement for White somewhere? I'm curious what you have to say about that game.

Here is one possible line. What are your thoughts or prior analysis on this?:

1) K10, L9
2) N10, K9
3) M9, L8
4) L10, J10
5) L7*, L8
6) M7, O11*
7) N7, K7

And now instead of M9:

8) M10 !?

The idea is that after:

8) ...M9
9) N10, O10
10) N9 !

Do you see any other way for Black to keep from losing immediately after 8) M10 ?

Rollie


K10,L9,N10,K9,M9,L8,L10,J10,L7,L8,M7,O11,N7,K7,M10



Message was edited by: rollietesh at May 13, 2010 9:13 PM


up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 14, 2010, 3:41 AM

Nice improvement Rollie. Black looks pretty dead after that new 8th. Is there something black could do differently on move 6 or 7? I doubt it but it looks like the only chance.

zoeyk

Posts: 2,043
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 14, 2010, 10:44 AM

well.. where to start,..
novatis appeared out of no where one day, as many players do.
but he was very good at pente. i believe he came from pente.net. any how, he was skilled tactically,.. but had not been exposed to the data base yet for positional knowledge. and he preferred to not use it other than a few lines he was developing novelties in. he wanted to play strong players, and although i would play him live, i didn't really want to get committed to any more turn based games at the time. he continually persisted to get me to play him turn based. so one day i offered him a turn based challenge.
we would both do 12 black games vs each other. each game was to be done with blacks first move being one of the 12 moves.
so the first moves of each game was the following;
K9
L9
M9
N9
O9
K8
M8
N8
O8
O7
N10
N7


and so we both started 12 games each with our P2 doing all of these moves for our first move. the challenge was to see who could do the most creative play as P2 in each of these.
the games were set to 30 days per move,....
and the final game is still in progress after all this time,..
my P2 at K8,.. which i have secured a sure win in. this game might not complete for another year tho.

in the game you have posted, i remember clearly before making the fatal move,.. keep in mind these were unrated games, and the main reason i was playing them was to make him happy (for he was very persistent), and to help his development (as i saw much potential in this player).
i remember looking at the position choice in the data base,
and the move you proposed was in there, richardiii had won with your idea vs nosovs if i recall correctly.
and i saw that if i went the way that i did that it could be struggle for me. i wanted to see tho,.. for fun,.. if i did not play it optimally, how deep would novatis see to exploit the error. and sure enough he exploited it very well. (don't get me wrong, i do make my fair share of errors.. not trying to make excuses here )

novatis has turned out to be a extremely strong player in my opinion. if you watch his games from when he first got here,.. and compare them to more current games, including his games a brainking.com, you will see that although he was always strong, he has improved.

well that was a long tangent of a story i guess,
to answer your question in a nut shell,.. yes,.. i saw your idea at the time of choice and realized it worked,
i went careless for reasons stated.

in all honesty, i wasn't sure if the way i chose worked or not at the time, i didn't look deep enough, to many games running, but i saw a challenge to do it, and a chance for the opponent, so i chose that move and rolled the dice, and novatis proved to have depth in pente vision in that line.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,043
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 14, 2010, 11:00 AM

Game 10,
i think the reason im having trouble with picking my move,(besides the fact that your move is brilliant looking and tricky looking ext..) is that there is actually more than one solution to it,.. make the 3,.. or attack the capture from above,.. or even the M9 position..
i might be wrong tho
my goal before moving is to determine the most optimal choice. im working several days in a row, and after work my mind is not empty enough to meditate into the patterns.

stay tuned,..

________________________________________________

Ps. im willing to play game 10 live with you instead, that might be interesting.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at May 14, 2010 6:20 AM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,207
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 14, 2010, 6:42 PM

Novatis told me he played 10,000 + pente games at flyordie, but he may also be on pente.net as well...

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,043
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 14, 2010, 11:57 PM

ahh the sand box (flyordie) well that would explain it then.
perhaps thats what he said, cant recall..
that site is interesting tho, the way its designed. there have been other strong players that came from there,..
mersenne was one, im probably misspelling her name..
(the fact that mersenne majored in mathematics might have helped too)

there are differences between pente.org and that site.
first you basically have to play it as speed there. and undos are not allowed. over lines dont win, like 6 in a row as example. cross coordinates i dont think they have, not sure..and for sure they dont have a data base, oh, and i think that it is not a 19 x 19 grid, if i recall it was a 13 x 13 grid over there.

ill just say this tho, the strong players that came from there have been known to say that competition is stronger at pente.org, and that they improved their game by coming here. mainly due to 3 things

1- stronger opponents
2- removable or extend-able timer here allows for deeper analysis.
3- data base

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 15, 2010, 1:46 AM

And the Boat Pente variation you advocate is very interesting, as shown by your game against viktor.

Though I have not tried B-Pente, I see why the defense is given such a boost by having the option of defending a four-in-a-row by attacking a pair.

If that pair capture across the four-in-a-row opens up further cross-captures, or if it leads to a 5th capture, then the defender could easily turn the tables on what appears to be an otherwise lost position.

Have you guys tried combining B-Pente with D-Pente? And for the ultimate -- disallow 6-in-a-row as well?


Message was edited by: rollietesh at May 14, 2010 7:46 PM


rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 15, 2010, 2:26 AM

zoeyk,

GAME 7

This is the kind of positional play that I wish was common in Pente. Which is why I still believe that the Wedge opening is Black's best chance, especially in a 20 min. game.

Even though zoeyk will find a clear win in GAME 7 for White, there are some lines that I would gladly take for Black in a timed-game. Lines that require White to play precisely or contain opportunities for easy blunders.

Same goes for up2ng's M6 move in this line. I would take the Black side in a timed-game in some lines. What other opening regularly allows Black to go well into the teens on the move list with control of the initiative not yet clearly resolved?

The Wedge opening is like the ultimate D-Pente position, with White having already committed to his 3rd stone placement. Plus, the game essentially starts with the objective being to gain three captures, rather than five. Upsetting the dynamics like this usually favors the defense.

Let me ask you this: If it turns out that Black's 7) ... L8 is eventually busted, then what does modern theory suggest is Black's next best shot (or two), so that I might try that next?

Watsu made the interesting prediction that Black would win 1 out of the first 3 Wedge games. I would be amazed if any of us ever won with Black while playing in this format. If there is one game where maybe I have a shot, it is GAME 10, though most likely zoeyk will find a clear win, but I'm not seeing it yet.

Even if the move 8) ...O10 in GAME 10 works, it still only makes the move 8) O6 dubious. Black still has to contend with up2ng's M6, and also richardiii's line is likely winning for White. BTW, richardiii, are you still playing?

Back to GAME 7:

All that said, despite the fact that Black has many interesting ways to try and gain an initiative in this game, zoeyk appears to have seen through all of them. I think I'm lost here, however I'm going to play on because up2ng is right that I'm resigning lost games too early. It is better to play it out further to demonstrate why White is winning. (I'll also revisit GAME 6 with that in mind.)

So, which of several losing lines should I choose to play? I could try a line where White's win is easier to flub up, or I could go with something that zoeyk might not have analyzed as much as the 'main' lines, hoping for a miracle.

Originally I was going to go with the former option and play 10) ... K9 11) M7, N7, which can be tricky in some lines, but zoeyk has likely see that 12) M5 ! wins immediately.

Therefore, I'm going with the latter option and play something that might momentarily startle zoeyk

9) M9, M10
10) O7, H11

Rollie

watsu

Posts: 1,207
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 15, 2010, 2:50 AM

Hi Rollie,
I think there has been a fair bit of informal experimentation with combining two or more variants in a single game, but so far we have to do it by mutual agreement on what the dual variant is and then playing the game out "following those rules" continuing a game off the board if necessary once a position has been reached where a board such as a D Pente board would not support boat Pente endings. In that particular case, players could propose a D pente opening on a boat pente board, cancel the game and then play the same four moves over in the second game swapping seats if needed. It takes a bit more effort to combine, but can be a lot of fun when the same old grind starts to get boring.

Also, I predicted AT LEAST 2/3 wins for P1 on the wedge lines

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 15, 2010, 3:08 AM

watsu,

>>Also, I predicted AT LEAST 2/3 wins for P1 on the wedge lines <<


Dum spiro, spero


Rollie

watsu

Posts: 1,207
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 15, 2010, 3:22 AM

Rollie Tesh- "Dum spiro, spero"
Et Animis Opibusque Parati?

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 15, 2010, 7:33 PM

Quick question for Rollie -- if you believe strongly that the Wedge is black's best defense or if it turns out to actually cause serious problems for white, what do you think of white playing move 2 away?

1. K10, L9
2. K13

Not interested in playing it out at the moment, just curious what your thoughts are on that opening.

Replies: 175   Views: 271,279   Pages: 12   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 | Next ]
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