Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 9:32 AM
Sure, I'll want to go back sometimes also. This being an analysis thread, the only thing is that instructional positions like this should remain existing. On this and similar games (including those where I take a move back) I'd prefer to leave this position up and start a new ALT diagram. In fact, let's please play the game out to the fifth capture. That way viewers will understand what the conclusion is in an apparently unclear position. Does that sound okay to you?
Also, I think that you will find that you need to go back to your 4th move. Although the position is complicated, P1 has a forced win after 5) M10.
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 10:00 AM
sure, should we just have me play the solid 4? or should i try switching up with a split 4 or a stretch 4? i have about 3 versions that all lose horribly hehe.
also,.. did u consider P2 moving to O13 on the 8th? i just spent about 30 minutes studying it and it looks decent.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 10:21 AM
i updated the game board for game 3,.. i assume that's your moves, and now just a matter of which of the 3 types of 4s you'd like to see me make. or i can block at K15 as a alternate way..
Message was edited by: zoeyk at May 2, 2010 4:23 AM
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 10:50 AM
honestly tho,.. your doin real good, because there are countless ways i saw for white to screw up in this game. there were other tempting moves other players as white would had tried that were doomed with creative P2 moves. you sure you had some rust on you?
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 4:13 PM
Wow, I am also extremely impressed. In Game #3 I remember this being a very tough line for white and he seemed to see the win clearly very early on.
I'm also looking a bit to see if black has any improvements after move 4 that work out but so far I'm not finding one. After 8 ... O13 I assume white can win with 9. M12 and played it out several ways with that result -- however there are several ways that could go so maybe you found something there I don't know. I took a look at other obscure moves like 6 ... Q9, which creates certain threats if 7. M12. However, this is pretty slow and barely even defensive against the primary threat and I'm sure white can find an easy way to continue from there.
Great job Rollie. It would be great to hear a bit of overall analysis about these games from you. I hope that we were at least able to challenge you in these games!
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 10:15 PM
Haha, very nice Rollie. I'm not sure why I didn't look at 5. G9 when I was analyzing this with some other players. Instead I was looking at white playing directly to 5. K12. If white plays 5. K12, expecting to block black's tria with a tria of his own, black responds with the trickier 5 ... M11! making a split 3 which actually wins the game! The improvement that was found was the much less intuitive 5. K11 which leads to a difficult line that white should end up winning in the end after a few complications.
However, by playing 5. G9 before playing 6. K12, white now has the proper position to win from this move -- and furthermore all of the winning variations from here are relatively straightforward to the point where black will just resign here. Once again, the stone on G8 played a critical role in defeating black's attack.
For someone who has been away from the game, you are playing the white stones perfectly. Let me know if you'd like to play this out further -- or I could just put the most obvious line into the diagram to make it even more clear why white has a sure win from here. Or, we could just leave it where it is.
Meanwhile, I've set up the 2nd alternate line for 1 ... N8 which you had said previously that you wanted to go back and look at in more detail. The one with:
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 10:36 PM
You guys have changed my perspective on the issue of whether or not Pente can be 'busted'. I now see that there are actually two separate issues. Can P1 always find a forced win by playing as we are, slow and able to shuffle the pieces around? Yes. But over-the-board that ain't so easy.
In both GAME 3 and GAME 1 P1 wins only by a whisker, and that is still not so clear in GAME 1. Finding these moves over the board, for the first time, I'm certain to at least get into time-trouble, and possibly lose as a result. Could I have seen all the forcing continuations in zoeyk's GAME 3 over-the-board? No. Instead I would be playing into it on instinct and hope for 'Pente justice' to kick in.
All that said, I still think that it boils down to this: There are really only three viable first moves for P2 -- L10, L9, and N8. All other possible first moves for P2 can be clumped into a group titles, "Easily bust-able or will transpose into one of the three primary defenses."
Therefore, all P1 needs to do is find a specific 2nd and 3rd move against each of the three primary defenses, which wins by force in all lines. There will only be, at most, about a dozen possible tries for P2 against any particular P1 set-up, and so it seems only a matter of time. Once an optimal 2nd and 3rd moves are found for P1 against each of the three primary defenses then it is only a matter of memorizing a few dozens openings. Once I know that, I could play at any time control and win by rote.
Then again, this has yet to be proven.
Furthermore, I'm not even sure that I WANT to 'know'. The thrill of the hunt is gone once the prey is caught. This in itself is another issue.
Which brings us to up2ng's GAME 1. Your move 7) ... O10 is much more resilient than I thought. A very nice test of my 3rd move. If I win this, it will only be by a whisker, as with zoeyk's GAME 3.
The decision between 8) L8* and 8) P7 is extremely complicated. I've gone back and forth between these two moves. In both cases P2 gets a shot at an initiative. Can P1 contain that initiative and eventually take it away? If we were playing this over-the-board in a tournament, I'm certain that I would get into very bad time-trouble in this position.
Crossing my fingers, I think I'm seeing tunnel light with 8) L8*. But if you continue to see more than me here, we might later need to go back and test 8) P7. Therefore, for now:
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 3, 2010, 12:03 AM
CONCERNING DIAGRAMS
1) When a game ends, there needs to be some indication of how and why that game concluded. The best way to do this is to squeeze in a line directly below the diagram that explains the conclusion. In this way viewers will immediately understand what happened.
For example, take GAME 3. zoeyk, thanks, that is the optimal game line to play through. Can you please take the position to its ultimate conclusion, ending with P1's fifth capture at P9 ? And then type in below that diagram:
"GAME 3 concludes with white winning on captures. Although the position is complicated, white appears to have a forced win after 5) 10."
It will be great to do that with each concluded game.
In the case of GAME 2, that position takes it far enough already to be understandable. Just type in below the diagram:
"GAME 2 concludes with white forming two threes."
In GAME 2 (ALT), I'm not sure what to do, you guys decide. Either play it out some more, or delete the diagram (maybe best), or perhaps conclude it there and write below it:
"GAME 2 (ALT) concludes with white further demonstrating that black cannot play so far away the first couple of moves."
2) Each time you guys update the diagrams can you please scroll down and erase all of the "Message was edited on ..." Thanks. Otherwise we are going to end up with a full page of these notices.
zoeyk, in GAME 3, do you wish to try something different in a new diagram? At some point we should test 4) ... M10, in which case I will respond 5) L7*
up2ng, GAME 2 (ALT2) is a position we discussed at length in the old thread. 2) ... M9 is the move that causes me to re-appreciate 1) ... N8, and is why I switched to playing 2) O10. I've already conceded that M9 demonstrates that G10 is not white's best 2nd move. So, thanks for teaching me that, and go ahead and delete that diagram. Or, if you wish, leave it up, concluded, and write below:
"This is the position that caused Rollie to stop answering 1) ... N8 with 2) G10, and also to further appreciate the viability of 1) ... N8."
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 3, 2010, 1:42 AM
zoeyk, concerning your interesting suggestion 8) ... O13, I think that up2ng is correct that 9) M12 creates a snowballing initiative. Do you agree or would you like to look at it more?
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 3, 2010, 2:12 AM
Rollie, I think you might find that P7 was in fact the better option, at least that's how I'm seeing it so far. But let's see how it works out. I'll have the next move shortly.
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 3, 2010, 2:34 AM
Note: I've updated the first post of the thread containing the diagrams with the above suggestions.
One odd thing I noticed (which was an issue when viewing the page from two seperate computers) is that the text that was written between and below the game applets was getting cut off. There's something about that first post in the thread where the formatting is getting cut off on the right, you can see it even on the very top where the edit buttons, etc are supposed to be, it's slightly cut off. I'm not sure exactly why that was happening and tried several things to fix it.
The workaround I came up with, which is not going to be very asthetic, is to place hard carriage returns throughout the text instead of letting it naturally word wrap to force all of the text to be on the screen without being cut off. Oh well.
