Black resigns since it will be impossible to avoid losing by 5 captures. White appears to have alternate winning lines with 5. M8 or with 9. O11 but with this "careful" approach, black was not left with enough offensive possibilities to overtake white's control of the game. -- up2ng
GAME #2
White wins by making two simultaneous trias and black cannot stop them both. The third move of 3. G8 was critical to thwarting black's defense. -- up2ng
GAME #3
Black resigns. Black will be unable to stop white's primary threat at P10, so the only hope for black was to maintain an initiative by creating a series of tesseras to force the action. At this point it is clear that doing so will result in white winning by captures. -- up2ng
Although the position is complicated, white appears to have a forced win after 5) M10. -- rollietesh
GAME #2 (ALT)
Black resigns at this point. The ability for white to play an extra long extension to K14 to avoid keystone problems provides for a straightforward win from this position. If white had played 5. K12 directly, black could have won with 5 ... K11, but by playing 5. G9 first, white sets up a counter for this defense, demonstrating that the order of the moves is important. Once again, 3. G8 was critical, although other third moves such as 3. H12 are available that also work very well. Despite these decisive lines, Rollie now believes that 2. G10 is not the strongest move for white due to the possibility of other types of defenses such as 2 ... M9. -- up2ng
GAME #3 (ALT)
GAME #4
zoeyk then makes a bold prediction on page 4 and Rollie already resigns this game. In my opinion this is too soon to resign and after all of the discussion about forming a "clump" of stones, I'm surprised he didn't at least try something like 4 ... O10, although this does eventually fail as well to the same white offense. Or, come up with something completely different. However, the point is well taken that white is in a strong position from the opening and black's chances from there are slim to none. -- up2ng
GAME #5
The first two moves in this game were set up by Rollie. Zoey would normally play a different second move, but feels that white should still win from that position and proceeds with the game from there. -- up2ng
Black resigns. Zoeyk has efficiently refuted my experiment. -- rollietesh
White has now cut off black's offensive chances and at the same time white has generated a victory by forcing moves on the left side of the formation, despite the keystone complications. -- up2ng
-----------------------
Discussion continues, and diagrams for more analyzed positions continues on Page 6.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 1, 2010, 10:15 PM
Game #1 and Game #2 are now updated with my next moves.
Game #3 is interesting. I remember playing white exactly the same way when I first saw this opening! Very tricky. It will be fun to hear Rollie's thoughts on this one when it's finished.
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 1, 2010, 10:35 PM
Hi up2ng,
In GAME 1 I played 5) M11. Please see my latest post in the old thread.
Late last night I did play 5) M8, but then quickly took it back as I was still undecided on that move or 5) M11.
I decided that 5) M11 is the best move, though I might later try 5) M8.
Please change the diagram to reflect my move 5) M11. Thanks. Also, take a closer look at those last postings in the old thread, as I give an IF move for you after my 5) M11.
Thanks,
Rollie ________________________________
BTW, I have a habit of posting my move quickly to get it out, then taking one last look, and quickly change my mind before I think anyone even saw the other move. up2ng, I'm surprised that you even saw my move 5) M8 as I took it back almost immediately and played the preferred 5) M11.
Message was edited by: rollietesh at May 1, 2010 5:03 PM
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 12:15 AM
Ah, Ok I've updated your move for Game 1 and I'll take a look at it and respond shortly. Zoey had created these diagrams and must have made a typo there. It is possible that since he was creating a new thread at the time that he was working off of an email that is generated whenever someone makes a new post to the thread, which would contain your original post. I'm not sure if edits get emailed or not. No problem.
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 12:19 AM
Thanks. Everything is on track now. Is zoeyk now in charge of the diagrams? Or is it possible for up2ng or even me to enter into editing the diagram, and thereby make my move that way?
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 12:26 AM
I can edit zoey's diagrams only because I happen to be an administrator here. Only you will not be able to edit them unfortunately! But your notation is very precise so it is working out well.
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 12:52 AM
Ok, all moves have been updated in the diagrams that I know about so far. Rollie's move in Game #1 and Game #2, Zoey's move in Game #3. Let's keep it going!
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 2:26 AM
GAME 1 5) M11, M8 6) O8
up2ng, your past two moves were not what I expected. That gives me mixed feelings of confidence and apprehension. Does he see something I am missing, or ...
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 7:16 AM
Very nice job finishing up Game #2 Rollie. No missteps there at all and now black resigns in the face of the double threat which cannot be countered.
As I mentioned before, I really just wanted to show and play out this 4th move since this was the original idea behind the N6 setup and get your thoughts on it.
You kept mentioning the idea of a keystone attack on the center stone as a primary reason for playing moves such as 1 ... N8. I agree with this and it is an important concept to recognize and learn to counter. But, here is an example of a more offensive / trap play by black who is not actually trying for a keystone attack, but is instead playing a trap, block and counterattack strategy of setting up a block with a tria that white must respond to without initiative, providing time for black to then take control of the game with forcing moves away from the action.
The principle idea here is that all of the threats / aggression by black is created as close to the beginning as possible, when white is at its most vulnorable due to the P1 second move restriction. If white is able to stave off this early attack it is an easy victory, but generally those first few moves can be very tough to find. When you consider that white's first two stones must be three spaces apart, and that playing the tria that's created with the first two stones will lead to a counter attack ... white is often hard-pressed to find a fast enough continuation that either does not play a tria along the 10-line or that sets up a "re-counter" attack to black's tria (as you have done here). Your move to 3. G8 played a critical role in this line since without that stone white would have lost initiative when blocking black's tria. There are many other 3rd moves that might lose to this attack because there is no good way for white to continue without playing its own tria on the 10-line, which black blocks with its tria, and white will then have no answer. So, extremely early moves, which are often the most complex, become the most important for white. Not only does white have to consider the possibility of a "normal" keystone attack after move 1, but also one of these other types of possibilities.
Not only that, but another, more psychological advantage that an opening like this might provide is a false sense of security. Seeing a board where two stones from black are played seemingly out of play might lead white to believe that they can just simply play it out however they like since black has foolishly tried to play on a completely unrelated part of the board (for example, if black had played 1 ... Q4 and 2 ... S2). Then, the trap is sprung by move 4 and 5. But, assuming white smelled something funny AND was able to identify just what the trap was, they still have to find a way to deal with it correctly since there are many ways to do make an error this early in the game.
Again, after analysis of your 3. G8, at the time this is pretty much how we knew 4 ... O7 should play out and so we felt that O7 was no longer the best option, but I wanted to show you the idea anyway. For completeness, I suggest that we now go back and play it out the way that we felt would be strongest for black. We suspect that white should still win, but it might be even trickier in this particular case. The move is:
4 ... L10
This is more direct and obvious (less deceptive, tricky or "trappy"), and also more defensive, but in this case the defensive nature of this choice appears to limit white's options more than the alternate choice of 4 ... O7. I would like to see how you proceed through this one from here. I will set up a new board with this position
---------------------
In Game #1, I will be extending and attacking the pair from above and will update the board at the same time as the other game. Your third move was strong for this setup also. Although it may look to many players to be unorthodox when playing white, it was a good option here. I often play early moves as white like this myself and sometimes get criticized for it, but sometimes taking an "inside" position despite pairing up your stones creates better positioning than the more "typical" spread out shapes for white's first three stones.
I suspect white has the advantage from here although I will do my best to make it a mess.
Posts:
2,233
Registered:
Mar 4, 2007
From:
San Francisco
Age:
45 Home page
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted:
May 2, 2010, 8:23 AM
P2 now has VCT. victory by continuous threat. i will have a pente on my 15th move, and you only get 4 captures. you did not calculate your 5th capture correctly, i end up blocking it in the process.
GAME 3 8) J8, M11 9) L14, L9
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
