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Topic: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
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zoeyk

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From: San Francisco
Age: 42
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The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 1, 2010, 8:31 PM

this thread originated from this link;
http://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=1&threadID=4561

GAME #1


Black resigns since it will be impossible to avoid losing
by 5 captures. White appears to have alternate winning
lines with 5. M8 or with 9. O11 but with this "careful"
approach, black was not left with enough offensive
possibilities to overtake white's control of the game.
-- up2ng


GAME #2


White wins by making two simultaneous trias and black
cannot stop them both. The third move of 3. G8 was
critical to thwarting black's defense.
-- up2ng


GAME #3


Black resigns. Black will be unable to stop white's
primary threat at P10, so the only hope for black was to
maintain an initiative by creating a series of tesseras
to force the action. At this point it is clear that
doing so will result in white winning by captures.
-- up2ng

Although the position is complicated, white appears to have a forced win after 5) M10.
-- rollietesh


GAME #2 (ALT)


Black resigns at this point. The ability for white to
play an extra long extension to K14 to avoid keystone
problems provides for a straightforward win from this
position. If white had played 5. K12 directly, black
could have won with 5 ... K11, but by playing 5. G9
first, white sets up a counter for this defense,
demonstrating that the order of the moves is important.
Once again, 3. G8 was critical, although other third
moves such as 3. H12 are available that also work very
well. Despite these decisive lines, Rollie now believes
that 2. G10 is not the strongest move for white due to
the possibility of other types of defenses such as
2 ... M9.
-- up2ng


GAME #3 (ALT)




GAME #4



zoeyk then makes a bold prediction on page 4 and Rollie
already resigns this game. In my opinion this is too
soon to resign and after all of the discussion about
forming a "clump" of stones, I'm surprised he didn't at
least try something like 4 ... O10, although this does
eventually fail as well to the same white offense. Or,
come up with something completely different. However,
the point is well taken that white is in a strong
position from the opening and black's chances from there
are slim to none.
-- up2ng


GAME #5


The first two moves in this game were set up by Rollie.
Zoey would normally play a different second move, but
feels that white should still win from that position and
proceeds with the game from there.
-- up2ng

Black resigns. Zoeyk has efficiently refuted my experiment.
-- rollietesh

White has now cut off black's offensive chances and at the same time white has generated a victory by forcing moves on the left side of the formation, despite the keystone complications.
-- up2ng

-----------------------

Discussion continues, and diagrams for more analyzed positions continues on Page 6.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare


up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 1, 2010, 10:15 PM

Game #1 and Game #2 are now updated with my next moves.

Game #3 is interesting. I remember playing white exactly the same way when I first saw this opening! Very tricky. It will be fun to hear Rollie's thoughts on this one when it's finished.

rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 1, 2010, 10:35 PM

Hi up2ng,

In GAME 1 I played 5) M11. Please see my latest post in the old thread.

Late last night I did play 5) M8, but then quickly took it back as I was still undecided on that move or 5) M11.

I decided that 5) M11 is the best move, though I might later try 5) M8.

Please change the diagram to reflect my move 5) M11. Thanks. Also, take a closer look at those last postings in the old thread, as I give an IF move for you after my 5) M11.

Thanks,

Rollie
________________________________

BTW, I have a habit of posting my move quickly to get it out, then taking one last look, and quickly change my mind before I think anyone even saw the other move. up2ng, I'm surprised that you even saw my move 5) M8 as I took it back almost immediately and played the preferred 5) M11.


Message was edited by: rollietesh at May 1, 2010 5:03 PM


rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 1, 2010, 10:48 PM

zoeyk,

(As per the way we did it in postal chess, I will always post the last two moves so as to confirm what is play.)

And btw, thanks guys for setting this up this thread.

GAME 2:
8) N4, L10
9) J10
(IF 9) ... F10 THEN 10) K11


GAME 3:
7) J5, O9
8) J8

Rollie

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 12:15 AM

Ah, Ok I've updated your move for Game 1 and I'll take a look at it and respond shortly. Zoey had created these diagrams and must have made a typo there. It is possible that since he was creating a new thread at the time that he was working off of an email that is generated whenever someone makes a new post to the thread, which would contain your original post. I'm not sure if edits get emailed or not. No problem.

rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 12:19 AM

Thanks. Everything is on track now. Is zoeyk now in charge of the diagrams? Or is it possible for up2ng or even me to enter into editing the diagram, and thereby make my move that way?

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 12:26 AM

I can edit zoey's diagrams only because I happen to be an administrator here. Only you will not be able to edit them unfortunately! But your notation is very precise so it is working out well.

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 12:52 AM

Ok, all moves have been updated in the diagrams that I know about so far. Rollie's move in Game #1 and Game #2, Zoey's move in Game #3. Let's keep it going!

rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 2:26 AM

GAME 1
5) M11, M8
6) O8

up2ng, your past two moves were not what I expected. That gives me mixed feelings of confidence and apprehension. Does he see something I am missing, or ...

GAME 2
11) P6, H9
12) K12

Rollie

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 7:16 AM

Very nice job finishing up Game #2 Rollie. No missteps there at all and now black resigns in the face of the double threat which cannot be countered.

As I mentioned before, I really just wanted to show and play out this 4th move since this was the original idea behind the N6 setup and get your thoughts on it.

You kept mentioning the idea of a keystone attack on the center stone as a primary reason for playing moves such as 1 ... N8. I agree with this and it is an important concept to recognize and learn to counter. But, here is an example of a more offensive / trap play by black who is not actually trying for a keystone attack, but is instead playing a trap, block and counterattack strategy of setting up a block with a tria that white must respond to without initiative, providing time for black to then take control of the game with forcing moves away from the action.

The principle idea here is that all of the threats / aggression by black is created as close to the beginning as possible, when white is at its most vulnorable due to the P1 second move restriction. If white is able to stave off this early attack it is an easy victory, but generally those first few moves can be very tough to find. When you consider that white's first two stones must be three spaces apart, and that playing the tria that's created with the first two stones will lead to a counter attack ... white is often hard-pressed to find a fast enough continuation that either does not play a tria along the 10-line or that sets up a "re-counter" attack to black's tria (as you have done here). Your move to 3. G8 played a critical role in this line since without that stone white would have lost initiative when blocking black's tria. There are many other 3rd moves that might lose to this attack because there is no good way for white to continue without playing its own tria on the 10-line, which black blocks with its tria, and white will then have no answer. So, extremely early moves, which are often the most complex, become the most important for white. Not only does white have to consider the possibility of a "normal" keystone attack after move 1, but also one of these other types of possibilities.

Not only that, but another, more psychological advantage that an opening like this might provide is a false sense of security. Seeing a board where two stones from black are played seemingly out of play might lead white to believe that they can just simply play it out however they like since black has foolishly tried to play on a completely unrelated part of the board (for example, if black had played 1 ... Q4 and 2 ... S2). Then, the trap is sprung by move 4 and 5. But, assuming white smelled something funny AND was able to identify just what the trap was, they still have to find a way to deal with it correctly since there are many ways to do make an error this early in the game.

Again, after analysis of your 3. G8, at the time this is pretty much how we knew 4 ... O7 should play out and so we felt that O7 was no longer the best option, but I wanted to show you the idea anyway. For completeness, I suggest that we now go back and play it out the way that we felt would be strongest for black. We suspect that white should still win, but it might be even trickier in this particular case. The move is:

4 ... L10

This is more direct and obvious (less deceptive, tricky or "trappy"), and also more defensive, but in this case the defensive nature of this choice appears to limit white's options more than the alternate choice of 4 ... O7. I would like to see how you proceed through this one from here. I will set up a new board with this position

---------------------

In Game #1, I will be extending and attacking the pair from above and will update the board at the same time as the other game. Your third move was strong for this setup also. Although it may look to many players to be unorthodox when playing white, it was a good option here. I often play early moves as white like this myself and sometimes get criticized for it, but sometimes taking an "inside" position despite pairing up your stones creates better positioning than the more "typical" spread out shapes for white's first three stones.

I suspect white has the advantage from here although I will do my best to make it a mess.

Your moves...

zoeyk

Posts: 2,006
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 7:21 AM

game 3
8)J8,M11
9) rollie to move

P1 wins by 5 captures on the 15th move?
i just dont see it that way, prove me wrong.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,006
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
Home page
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 7:22 AM

double posted some how, now edited.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at May 2, 2010 1:26 AM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 7:39 AM

GAME 3
8) J8, M11
9) L14

zoeyk

Posts: 2,006
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 42
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Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 8:23 AM

P2 now has VCT. victory by continuous threat. i will have a pente on my 15th move, and you only get 4 captures. you did not calculate your 5th capture correctly, i end up blocking it in the process.

GAME 3
8) J8, M11
9) L14, L9

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: The Rollie Tesh Analysis Thread.
Posted: May 2, 2010, 8:32 AM

We'll see

GAME 3

9) L14, L9
10) M9

Replies: 175   Views: 213,888   Pages: 12   [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 | Next ]
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