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Topic: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
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Replies: 166   Views: 128,935   Pages: 12   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 | Next ]
zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 21, 2010, 2:23 AM

thanks, yes typo. K11, "H9" combo i meant, not J9.
i think your 8) K10 is a typo, K10 is already there.

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up2ng

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 21, 2010, 4:56 AM

Oops, you're right, I meant K11, agreeing with your idea for why 7. J10 is a good response to 6 ... N9

Still looking for a few ideas on how watsu's line might play out -- I listed what I thought would probably happen, but there seem to be many possibilities, which is one of the reasons why the end result seems unclear from that position, making it an excellent improvement.

watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 21, 2010, 6:11 AM

I looked in a bit of depth at a possible next move for black in our alternate line of 10. ... J12

I'm pretty sure that move falls one pair short with best play, ending up losing to 11. N8. I haven't looked yet in depth at 10. ... L9*, which looks at least worth exploring. 10. ... K5 might have enough going for it to make things tricky for white, since it seems to help block against the continuations after N8 by white. I'm not that great at reading things like the potential threat of a move by white to J12, but it seems to me that black can neutralize that with G11 and keystone pair attacks.
It's difficult for me to analyse things like this by myself, so if I've missed something blindingly obvious in terms of threats, please excuse it...
The three or four moves I've suggested seem to be the least passive moves which I can see without major difficulties associated with them, and I think right now black can't afford to be passive.


Looking further at K5, it appears to lose to N8 as well. As far as the L9 capture, it seems like a bad idea- because it removes the capture trap which Up2ng mentioned earlier. I'm at a loss for a great move in this spot. Time for defensive measures, perhaps?

Still- I'd say it's a great time eating trap position for P2 if P1 gets into it. I'd hate to have to try to figure all this out while under time pressure.


Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 21, 2010 1:48 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 21, 2010, 7:59 PM

in that position white has a clear win.






but how about this, it seems to be different..
by remaining passive and not removing the L10 stone future events may alter.




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watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 21, 2010, 8:05 PM

I agree with you on the clear win; I think P2 can play it for one more capture, but it's still a loss... your suggestion for an alternate position looks interesting, I'll have to look at it some more... I'd say very interesting and tricky. I'd like to see it played...


I'm assuming that if 10. L12, you wouldn't play 10. ... N12, since that basically puts us in the same place as the first board. Perhaps 10. ... N8 instead?


Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 21, 2010 2:19 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 21, 2010, 9:33 PM

ehh after further study, black just has got nothing there.

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zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 21, 2010, 9:59 PM

well maybe we can have a look at this position.


the position



P1 plays to M9, i havn't found a P2 win here yet.



or white caps to H11*, although this looks more agressive than M9, it seems some how weaker compared to M9



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zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 21, 2010, 10:11 PM

and then there's this one, im not sure where Rollie's next move is going to be. i guess M13, M11 or something.

** ok just looked, M13,M11 seems rather solid. no good for P2 here either.

hehe, pretty good Rollie




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up2ng

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 22, 2010, 2:07 AM

I think I already described how white beats each of these recent alts that zoey is exploring here. And I think zoey found the same winning combinations that I posted earlier. Watsu's line is definitely black's best chance.

So, back to Watsu's line. I didn't want to keep posting until other folks had a chance to jump in with some ideas. As watsu described and zoey showed, I had already seen that 10 ... J12 loses. Watsu then suggested:

10 ... L9*!

This is one of the scenarios I thought about way back when watsu first suggested this line that I felt makes things very unclear. This might even be a winning position for black! Look at what happens to white's continuation after this capture. It will take some seriously complex moves to retain the initiative from here.

White's response?

EDIT: Here is the new board position:




watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 22, 2010, 2:36 AM

I'd say M9, threatening M10 next...

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 22, 2010, 3:09 AM

White plays M9,.. and you do what? O11? K13? J12? H9? M10?



-----------------------------

oops, didnt see watsu already posted.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Apr 21, 2010 9:09 PM


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zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 22, 2010, 3:22 AM

hmmm H11,J12 for black looks interesting,.. the other moves fail fast tho, the other ones i had suggested.
if needed i can make boards for those.

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zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 22, 2010, 11:03 AM

Well myself, up2ng, and happyj0 spent hours today checking to see if Rollie's P1 was bullet proof. here are 2 variations that were the best we could muster for Player 2 after countless attempts in a motion of starting at the end of the line and moving backwards slowly checking every possible nook and cranny.

P1 seems rather solid, although very complex to use.

in this one, we stopped the game there to let the readers have fun staring at it for an hour like we did to finally to come to the realization that P1 has sure win. enjoy!

note that in both games on P2's 18th P2 has obtained 4 captures, and white only has one, yet P1 finds a way to get 5 captures in this first game here,.. in the second game its basically by 5 captures as well that P1 wins, i just didn't play into them at the end, i fell on my sword as P2 and clicked to the corners.
P1 hung in there by a thread.






in this one P2 blocks the 3 at the other end, this too was tricky, finally white found a way. just amazing, it just doesn't seem like P1 could pull it off, until it did.




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zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 22, 2010, 5:53 PM

eeek, lol so because the games were private unrated they only can show in here for me and up2ng to view.
no problem, when i or someone gets a chance we can type it out into viewable boards.

game one;

1. K10 K9 2. N10 J11 3. L10 M10 4. L8 L11 5. M9 O11 6. K12 N11 7. K7 J6 8. P11
N9 9. J10 K11 10. M11 N8 11. M9 O11 12. L12 G11 13. H11 G12 14. H11 O8 15. P7
J12 16. P8 M12 17. K12 P9 18. O9 P6 19. P7 L12 20. Q7 P8 21. R7 O7 22. S7 T7 23.
N13 1-0



game 2:

1. K10 K9 2. N10 J11 3. L10 M10 4. L8 L11 5. M9 O11 6. K12 N11 7. K7 J6 8. P11
N9 9. J10 K11 10. M11 N8 11. M9 O11 12. L12 G11 13. H11 G12 14. H11 O8 15. P7
J12 16. P8 M12 17. K12 P9 18. O9 P6 19. P7 P8 20. N7 N8 21. Q10 R9 22. O12 N13
23. O7 O14 24. P15 B2 25. Q7 B18 26. R7 1-0

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watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 22, 2010, 7:29 PM

Game 1



Game 2



and one line which Up2ng, happyj0 and I looked at last night, showing a way in which 10. ... L9* fails
Game 3




Up2ng sent me a message about a variation of that line which he and happyj0 thought of after I left. I've left out a few moves which were played in the game three, but the basic idea of that alternate, as far as I can tell from the note was to this effect-
Game 4




Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 23, 2010 1:18 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
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