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rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 29, 2010, 5:10 AM

zoeyk's 2) ... L7 in GAME 1 is the kind of 'weird formation' I mentioned that sometimes work, though in-often enough not to be exhaustible. Though I have not proven it, I only suspect it, but I'm confident that I could prove it with sufficient effort. I would love to know that I'm wrong though

One thing I must say about this fun visit to pente.org is that I have become a convert to 2) ... N8. I completely misunderstood the unique advantages of this opening 25 years ago. Now this shines a new light about Dan Allen boasting about his new secret defense during the 1983 WC. I still think I can beat N8 though

zoeyk, by "immediate win" in GAME 2, I mean that P1 will have the beginning of a runaway initiative within 4 to 5 moves at most. With little to no P2 interference during the first couple of moves, P1 can play in a half-dozen places to the far left and I believe will have a runaway initiative before long. Your 3) H12 may well be best. Are you saying that 3) G8 also wins? My main interest in this game is if you can show that P2 can resist for several moves, maintaining an unclear position. If so I would very much like to know that. I will stick with my 3) G8, unless you want to jump to the chase and test whether you can also resist the 'strongest' 3) K12. Either way is fine with me. (Remind me - did you already play N7 and me N9? If so, then just insert that in and send your next move to whichever variation you like that tests this theory.)

BTW, when you guys say "white" do you mean P1 or P2?

All, I need to break for a day or so to focus on finishing a project. I'll be back soon, though I might stop in briefly to read posts.

I can go ahead in GAME 1 and respond to up2ng's 3) ... M7 with my 4) O9.

Rollie


rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 29, 2010, 5:24 AM

BTW, do you guys ever use "IF" moves when playing turn-based games? This is usually done with obvious moves. Such as blocking trias, etc. As in "If you play 4) O9, then I will play ..." IF moves can go on for several moves. The other player simply accepts or declines any IF moves and plays from there. It speeds things up when obvious moves are afoot.

I forgot to mention that I intend to answer all of zoeyk's and watsu's nice posts when I have time to refocus soon.

Rollie

watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 29, 2010, 7:01 PM

Rollie,
When we say white at this site, we mean player 1. Other sites are different. I've never seen the "IF" moves implemented anywhere, but you are right, that would speed up turn based games quite a bit. Provided the opponent ddin't take a look at the list and come up with something sneaky not on it, of course.

Also, I liked the idea you mentioned about prearranged board positions D Pente tournaments. It might work well if each player came up with proposed opening positions and submitted them to the tournament director. A tournament with that setup could easily follow a similar format to duplicate bridge tournaments as you proposed, with each player playing one side or the other of each board against a different player in the other seat and all of the results being graded against how others in that same seat fared on that board.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 29, 2010, 7:21 PM

for good D pente openings see arczi's games where he was the one who set the positions. it doesn't show who sets them unfortunately, but i know his style, so if you find some i can tell you if he had set it up with in reasonable certainty.

and rollie, in our timed turn based games, make sure you move before you time out in those.

up2ng, give me a little bit to get back to u on that question of the n8 opening.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 29, 2010, 9:11 PM

I posted some D pente opening boards of games which arczi was involved in here
(so as not to further clog this already large thread). Feel free to add and/or comment here or there.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 1:34 AM

those are not exactly the best ones ive seen him do. although those do give an idea. when i get a chance ill dig around and pull out the ones that i found to be the most intriguing.

rollie; u may want to move in our turn based games, you will time out and lose if u don't, and they are rated by the way.

up2ng; i want to try all 3 variants of the N8 we looked at. i don't see why it would be over whelming for rollie, since he thinks P1 has a clear forcing initiative. i bet once the games start he will realize its easily manageable with no time constraints. after all, rollie does want to be proven wrong, so we must be thorough.

what do u think rollie? sounds ok?

Game #1

Game #2 A
Game #2 B
Game #2 C

Game #3

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zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 1:58 AM

to up2ng;

Game #3 2)M8
is my move.

no data base please rollie

P.s. i would like to give Karlw credit for being the player whom worked so hard to sharpen this line in past years. one of his more famous opens.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 2:50 AM

Hi zoeyk,

There appears to be some miscommunication. Once cleared up we can both move forward with confidence. Two issues:

1) I've attempted to make clear from the beginning that I'm not interested in any time-controls, not at this moment. Perhaps sometime in the near future, when I'm between projects and can focus, I'll be up for actual games. I only have time at the moment to peek in on occasion to see if a new move has been made in our "analysis train." I was originally only interested in playing through one game, turn by turn, as a form of analysis, nothing more. Your request today for me to meet some kind of time control comes as a contradictory surprise to my previous writings. Also, these are not actual games, just three analysis exercises to see if you guys have anything that puts up a fight as P2. No time control, no actual games, just move-by-move analysis. Feel free, for example, to take any moves back, use the database, ask others' opinions, whatever will help resolve the analysis questions at hand. Perhaps sometimes soon we can play real games, but not now. I hope in understand.

2) In the two "analysis games" I have going on with you, I did make my moves on April 27 at 8:00pm, and thought I was waiting on you. In your subsequent postings I did not see any moves from you, though if I missed them, my apologies. Yesterday I also made my move against up2ng, though I assume he needs to take some time in the current critical position.

So, if you still desire to continue the three games in analysis form, here is where things currently stand.

(BTW, as I was about to write this I see that you made your move in GAME 3, with 2) ... M8, so I will go ahead and answer that move with 3) N12. Normally I would spend more time on this position, but I'm in crunch time right now working on a new CCG project. If N12 doesn't work then I will try something different in your, and KarlW's very interesting defense. (BTW, I'm also confused why you addressed your GAME 3 to up2ng? Is that game supposed to be between the two of you? If so, apologies for my confusion. If it is me playing GAME 3 with you, then below is my move:

Here is where things currently stand:

GAME 1:
1) K10, N8
2) N10, L6
3) L9, M7
4) O9 (up2ng to move)

GAME 2:
1) K10, N8
2) G10, N6
3) G8, N7
4) N9 (zoeyk to move)

GAME 3:
1) K10, K9
2) N10, M8
3) N12 (zoeyk to move)

Whatever the source of confusion, let's get past it and continue these analysis/games as they are, if you like, with no time controls or any other restrictions or expectations. This is all I have time for at the moment, and occasionally I might need to take a few days away. Sometime soon I look forward to having the time to play real games with you.

Thanks,

Rollie

watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 5:49 AM

Rollie,
I think the confusion is because you and zoeyk actually have a turn based game going on here in addition to what is going on in this analysis thread. If that is the case, what you will see on your dashboard page (the main page when you are logged in) if you scroll down it is somethig to this effect:

My Turn-Based Games

Active Games- My Turn (2)

This is what Zoey would be referring to. I'll bet he'd be willing to cancel what is going on there...

...and I think zoey address his move to up2ng because he is the person who can edit that board post.


Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 29, 2010 11:55 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
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From: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 7:00 AM

hi rollie,
sorry for the confusion. in the turn based games we have that are rated with timers, i had thought you just didn't have time for live games, and so i sent you an invite proposing a turn based set of 2 games alternating colors with 3 days each to move plus weekends off, plus 10 vacation days you can use.
under that was 2 buttons, accept and decline. you clicked accept. its fine by me to cancel the games. when dweebo (the site owner) pokes his head into the site im sure he will be fine with erasing the games and their results. hes been m.i.a. for a little bit, so you will need to bare with me there. again sorry.

in game 2, i am wanting to touch base with up2ng in the lobby first.
in game 3 my next move is 3) N9

as watsu had said, up2ng is the only one able to access the boards he had created to add moves, so i addressed my move to him to add, but i suppose i should had said your name too, sorry for the confusion there. this concept of playing with a group an entire turn based game in a 10 page thread of the forum is new for me.

as for the game 2 where i wanted to propose 3 ways, was only from an analysis stand point. i didn't intend to win it, but wanted to be thorough in presenting P2's options, so you your self could be most certain of the results, thus effecting your theory of P2, or not.

i realize you are a busy man, and we are fortunate to get to spend any amount of time with you. i will try to show patients, and i look forward to when you are in-between projects and have the time to join us at the live tables and such.

zoey

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zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 5:56 PM

aha, i have found a cancel game request button, i have sent you a request to cancel the rated set, not sure how you accept, possibly you just open one of the games to see the request, or possibly there is a notification on your dashboard.

z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 9:54 PM

Hi zoeyk, and up2ng, and watsu, and everyone else,

I am usually not as busy as I am at the moment. The project I'm currently involved with has a deadline of May 15. Shortly thereafter I look forward to having time for real games. Even when I am busy I do like to sometimes take a break to clear the brain muck, by switching to something else for a few minutes. That is why it is nice to occasionally drop in here, see a new move made in one of three games, and think about my reply. That works well for now.

Thank you for clearing the old turn-based games, and I was indeed able to find the cancel as well. Originally, when I accepted, I thought it was because that interface would be easiest to use while playing these "analysis games," though not realizing they were timed or rated. The main thing that confused me, zoeyk, was that in the game in which you are P2, I saw no black stone played yet. So I decided to return to the forum page to play.

All that said, you guys are likely right that some kind of diagrammed interface is best to play with. I am up to switching to that. Especially because Gary Gabrel wants to watch the 'games' and a diagrammed interface will make that easier -- the interface that has the move-scroll to the right, allowing spectators to play back through the moves.

Is that possible to set up somehow? Is it possible to used the turn-based interface that you were wanting to use, but not timed? Or rated? The last issue is not so important, except that these are not real games. And we could always both choose to cancel the game at the very end to prevent it from being rated.

Long story short, you guys decide the best way to do this and I will comply. Just send me an item-by-item list of what I click to make it happen from my end.

zoeyk, let's take it one game at a time in GAME 2. If that variation doesn't work, you can try another in a new game. All you need to eventually find is some line that keeps P2 in the game. Try several things over time. I'm very curious if you can show me that P2 can pull this off.

And hi up2ng, how are you?

Rollie
_________________________

zoeyk, originally I had posted here my 4th move on GAME 3, but instead I would like to think about it a little longer.

You guys might me making a convert of me. The move 1) ... N8 and also zoeyk's "knight-move" defenses are ones that may well be keeping Pente alive.

My assumption all along is that P2's only chance was to force a keystone pair on the 3rd or 4th move. Nothing would be better than to realize that there are certain defenses that set up a multitude of reciprocal counter-blocks by P2. Maybe, we'll see

I still don't believe that P2 can possibly hold out long in GAME 2.

Please keep something else in mind, I have some catching up to do on Pente strategy. To put it in perspective, the last time I seriously studied Pente, both zoeyk and up2ng were 7 years old. I did play in one tournament after that, but I did not study because it was only a promotional "photo-op" for the "Pente 20th Anniversary" game release. So please bare with me as I brush the cob webs off.

I'll respond in GAME 3 soon, especially if you guys can get some kind of diagram interface set up.

Rollie


Message was edited by: rollietesh at Apr 30, 2010 4:43 PM


rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 11:17 PM

Hi guys,

I clicked on the "Start a Game" button to see what happens.
This is easy isn't it? Just set up the three games with maximum time control (20 days per move) and click NO on Rated? I'll move a lot faster than every 20 days, but these settings satisfy everything. Would that work? If so, go ahead and set that up and I'll comply immediately.

Thanks,
Rollie
__________________________

If the game is set up "Not Rated," can the public still view? I do want the games to be public. For one thing, Gary Gabrel would like to watch.


Message was edited by: rollietesh at Apr 30, 2010 5:35 PM


zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 11:40 PM

if you make a real turn based game from the home page no one can see the game except the people playing until the game has completed. so i don't think that works for you.
we will likely need to keep posting boards in the forum here like before.

z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 30, 2010, 11:54 PM

Okay, I see. We can then do your other suggestion of posting our moves each time as a diagram. This will eat a lot of pages, but I'm up for it, unless you know of a better way to play slow public games with diagrams.

If we start posting as diagrams, each diagram is then titled either GAME 1, or GAME 2, or GAME 3; and later GAME 4, etc. Does that sound good?

up2ng and watsu taught me how to make diagrams, but I do not see that move-scroll to the right. How do I include the move-scroll?
__________________________

Also, I see you saying something about an "Analysis Room"? What's that?


Message was edited by: rollietesh at Apr 30, 2010 5:57 PM


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