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Topic: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
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rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 4:19 AM

zoeyk,

Thanks for giving us all that nice photo revisit of history, though I'm reminded of back when I was hopelessly skinny Attached is a more current photo. BTW, I would like to donate to pente.org, and then also be able to post my current photo on my page, but I do not have paypal. Does anyone know how to donate with a normal CC?


rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 4:24 AM

Me at 51

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 4:32 AM

Wow, how did I miss this?? Would have been great to chat with you Rollie, and I hope that you will continue to pop in here to chat and/or play from time to time.

Interesting game posted here. Well executed by white in a complex position.

I had just finished going through all the moves and finding no improvement for black when I checked the posted suggestions. I had thought of the same ones that zoey listed, and none of them appear to work. But that improvement suggested by watsu is nasty! Not something that I found after the fact and not something that I would have thought of in a timed over-the-board game. At least not likely. Definitely a good concept involved there to be explored in another thread in its own right.

The improvement for black is 7 ... L11, which ignores the tria on the board by creating its own tria along with a carefully disguised series of captures across the opponent's tria that creates a tessera for black before white is able to win. Not only would this turn white's tria into a false threat, but it creates a threat for black that must be responded to!

I could not envision what exactly would happen by just staring at the position like you are supposed to do in a live match. So, I started moving stones around on a board.

After trying some lines out, it is clear that white cannot stubbornly ignore this and play any combination of a tessera (8. J10, 8. M10 and 8. O10 all fail in various ways).

Fortunately for white, black has been forced to play so defensive to this point that this attack does not actually threaten any continuation. Nothing else lines up for black. So, white's best move is to block:

8. M11, N12*
9. M11

At this point white's attack has been disrupted but black has no clear continuation so black should continue defending white's potential attacks. Blocking with a keystone attack looks the most promising to me. Now, it would be tempting to play 9 ... L12 followed by L9 to try and set up an interesting possible double keystone attack for the win, but this is too slow since white would defend at 10. O9 and would have three available extensions along the P-line to force victory. So,

9 ... O9

This is a trap position now for white due to the keystone attack. White cannot play the tria at 10. N8 for example. This trap is even more nasty because white also cannot play the tempting tria at 10. M10 either! (10. M10, L12*; 11. M11, L9*; 12. M9, N10* etc.)

Again, since black has no continuation, the best move for white is probably to cover up the keystone pair:

10. L12

From here it's still not clear which way this game would go. Black has no clear attack but white's position has become messy and complex.


This is the only improvement that I can see for black that would significantly improve chances to come away with the win -- nice find watsu!

Rollie, it's clear that you still got it! Well played by both players. Again, I hope that you will continue to participate here once in a while from now on. Welcome aboard!

watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 5:07 AM

Rollie, the site owner, Dweebo AKA Peter Hewitt will accept donations via check or money order- that's how I donated. You'll have to ask him for the address to send it to though, since I haven't kept it.

Up2ng- thanks for the compliment; I can't take full credit for the find, though. Something Rollie said during the course of the game which I misinterpreted as a possible line for black led me to look at that. However, I think I may be able to take the credit for first describing in the forum this particular case of being able to ignore the opponent's tria-
http://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=27&threadID=4310&messageID=17662#17662

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 5:37 AM

yes, and i still feel we need some kind of name for these instances where you can answer a 3 by ignoring it with out losing in about 2 moves.

its a concept with no name, just a long sentence describing it lol.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
happyj0

Posts: 58
Registered: Mar 12, 2010
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 6:50 AM

"i still feel we need some kind of name for these instances where you can answer a 3 by ignoring it with out losing in about 2 moves."

Well, we can always call it a "watsu". I'm pretty sure it hasn't been used before, and it sound East Asian where the 5-in-a-row games originated if I am not mistaken. Of course watsu ddn't originate the concept, but it sound good to me, better than anything else that is artificial.

zoeyk

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 7:56 AM

well, i think i was the one that started the thread discussing it that watsu posted in. and no, i dont want to call it a zoey move lol.
and the concept has been around before that thread.
i was kinda leaning towards maybe a websters word or 2 that fits it, or a term that is already in use in a similar board game that we could adopt. if those fail then perhaps a acronym. but i know there are those who avoid new pente acronyms like the plague. im not one of them of course, but i understand the reasoning.
tom braunlich named a 3x2 threat after his state bird consisting of 4 words, seems prolix.
a "scissor tailed fly catcher".
and although i want to respect that, i can't seem to bring my self to type all that out every time i need to refer to the shape.
surly tom had a sense of humor when naming it that.
this is the reason i adopted a single word from gomoku that meant the exact same shape and principle. "Fukumi".
ill further point out that although some players adopted the new name, i did receive a minor back lash from the,..more conventional types. so it has two names depending on who chooses which one at the time.

any how,.. its waited this long for a name, i suppose we can wait some more until the right idea comes along, but by all means call it a watsu if u like.

ps - i asked watsu before if he was asian, he said no,..
i always pictured this little Japanese man like the guy in karate kid the movie lol. i forget what he said it meant, but from what i recall it wasn't related to the orient.

i actually wonder if Renju has a term for this, since it does contain the same situations.
i bet nosovs knows! he was the president of the RIF Renju International Federation, and even wrote the #1 Renju Book. just a thought.


zoeyk

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 5:33 PM

All of KarlW's scenarios in that thread post involve caps- which Renju doesn't have- except for soft blocking, which isn't strictly speaking ignoring the tria...

I was going the acronym route myself- TIM or STIM or TIP were some of my thoughts for that or I thought if TIA worked as an acronym then one could counter a tria with a TIA

Watsu is a mixture of the words wa(ter) and (shia)tsu. Since shiatsu is oriental in origin, it has some orientalness, but I'm not in favor of calling the game situation that.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 6:57 PM

well, what do these acronyms stand for?
and i could had swore you said something like, watsu is a character in a book hehe. so i stand corrected.

and i must admit i don't know enough about renju, i actually thought it involved captures.

i havnt found a good enough word for it yet my self, but i will say it seems something similar to a Paradox, in that you block a 3 by not blocking it. to do something by not doing it. it is but isn't, contradictory kind of.

zoeyk

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 7:02 PM

TIM= tria ignoring move
STIM= successful " "
TIP= tria ignoring play
TIA=? maybe tria ignoring action or attack? I dunno...

Ninuki renju has caps, but not regular renju. I doubt there's been enough written about Ninuki Renju to have a term for this, but if someone with a knowledge of Japanese can find literature from the 1920s-1940s when it had its own organization, I'd love to be proved wrong on that.


How about this... I just found it with a search of "do by not doing" - wei wu wei http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei
"action without action"


Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 19, 2010 1:09 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 8:03 PM

Here's a link and transcription of a ninuki renju puzzle which seems to illustrate the concept taken one step further (since imperfect fives can be captured across). Now, if only someone who can read Japanese can tell us if there is a term used for the illustrated position in the text...
http://i-alpha.com/renju/gametop.htm

K10,J9,F10,J7,H8,K8,G9,D12,E11,G8,H9,E8,J12,M12,L11,G11,G14,H12,L12,N12,M13,N11,N13,M14,O11,J13,K11


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 8:24 PM

i like the TIA,
Tria Ignore Action,

in chess ive seen the word "action" used to describe a forcing or aggressively attacking move.

but here's the thing, some times these situations are not attacking or forcing, sometimes they are only defusing.
if you re-read the definitions you'll notice what i mean.

sometimes its a action/attack, and sometimes its a defusing tactic, or even a semi coincidental, preset defusing happenstance. the last one is where for example that the defusing pieces were already there for other reasons before hand, and the 3 cant extend on either end without becoming captured in a manner that either leads to the opponent getting a 5th capture a 5 in a row, or something along those lines.


_______________________________________________________


ahh ok, u edited while i was writing my post.
this wei wu wei term is interesting.
or a Paradox Block is another perhaps.
action without action,..this seems pretty close.

im not sure what the position u posted is telling me here.
whats the next move?


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Apr 19, 2010 2:35 PM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 8:34 PM

Yes, I agree with you that in some of the examples the ignore move has nothing to do with the tria being ignored- the tria maker in that case probably did not recognise the threats already in place preventing the tria from winning. However, the intentional ignore and moving elsewhere could still perhaps be deemed an action, if not an attack... I do like the Taoist wei wu wei, though. www
I hope we get a Japanese term from Ninuki, however. That ignoring attack in the puzzle is quite devastating, IMO.

Getting the thread back on track, when's the other half of your set with Rollie? Got my popcorn ready...


Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 19, 2010 2:38 PM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
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From: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 8:46 PM

hehe,.. up to rollie,.. you know me, i practically live here

www? hmm ok, but people will think im giving them a URL link maybe lol

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 988
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Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 19, 2010, 8:46 PM

The game is ninuki renju, black to move in this position and win. The hints have already been given...

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
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