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rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 1:21 AM

Yes, it would be nice to keep playing on this page, as we are. If zoeyk could post an updated diagram every once in a while, that would be great for quickly playing through to the current position. I find however that I need to go elsewhere to an interface that allows me to move the pieces around.

Since the purpose of this game is to find a forced win against 1) ... N8, rather than to actually win the game, the everything should be wide open. The database is what it is, and can be helpful for getting ideas, but eventually one or all of us will need to go off the range with a definitive innovation.

zoeyk, the definition of "forced win" I guess means that P1 has a specific threat, usually to play the first three stones AWAY FROM P2 which gives an P1 irresistible initiative. P2 will often have only a limited number of ways to counter that threat, usually involving trying to force a keystone pair. If a forced and clear win can be shown against all possible P2 counters, then 1) ... N8 is officially busted. It is then only a matter of memorizing a few key lines, because most will run along a central theme.

For example, after 1) K10, N8 2) G10, my threat is to play my third stone somewhere also away from N8. If P2 cannot force a critical keystone pair very soon, nor find some 'weird formation' that just happens to block all P1 moves, then this opening is settled. In the case of the latter, 'weird formations' are usually rare, easy to exhaust.

This is why I would fear 2) ... M9 over 2) ... N6. The latter I see is surprisingly popular in the database. This raises a central question. If it is indeed possible for P2 to play so far away from P1, and not immediately lose, then my whole theory is wrong. For this reason, let's start with 2) ... N6 in an attempt to quickly demonstrate that P2 is far too passive. I'll attempt to do this with 3) G8

1) K10, N8
2) G10, N6
3) G8

If it turns out that P2 must indeed play to force a keystone pair on the 3rd move, then later we can go on to looking at up2ng's more direct shot of 2) ... M9. In fact, the more I look at that move the more I feel like I understand the opening better. M9 is the best shot at showing that G10 might not be best, M9 threatens to force a keystone on L10, which does not work well at all with P1's stone on G10. If was intending to play:

1) K10, N8
2) G10, M9
3) J8

(Because after 3) ... O7 4) L10, J10 5) M10 ! And I think P1 is winning. HOWEVER, if P2 instead plays the immediate 3) ... J10 ! Ouch, that is a nasty move.

I think I'm starting to understand something about N8. Let's assume that P2 is going to be able on the 3rd move to force a keystone onto either L10 or K11, and at P2's discretion. This means that P1 must play as if the K10 stone is soon to disappear, and that wherever P1 plays his 2nd and 3rd stones, both of those stone must work in formation with EITHER L10 or K11.

This is why I was considering moves like 2) N11 or 2) N12 or 2) L13. In this light it might well be that 2) G10 is not the most direct way to try and bust N8.

Let's first play through zoeyk's 2) ... N6 with my answer of 3) G8. Because if I cannot show a quick win P1 when P2's stones are so far away, then my whole premise is wrong After settling that, I want to take a closer look at P1's other candidate 2nd moves, with up2ng's M9 in mind (along with 2) ... L10 of course)

How does that sound?

Rollie


rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 1:40 AM

While I was writing that last post, I see that you guys posted concerns about me looking at the database.

You are absolutely right, that if we are playing to win, or perhaps just to see how old-school matches up with modern, then I should avoid the database. For what it is worth, I haven't spent much time in there yet, nor have have I yet seen what I would call an an "a-ha". A common mistake seen throughout is the premature extension of trias, or even pairs. I'm really not getting that much out of the database, at least not yet. The only reason that I mentioned N11 was to affirm that I'm not being influenced by the database.

Preparation is one thing, but I'm always going to have to find my own move eventually anyway -- my own justification for playing a line. If you prefer, I'll stop looking there, though it has not been of any influence, not yet anyway.

The most salient point you guys make is that timed live games are what really matter. Gary Barnes suggestion of 30 minutes each per game sounds just right. Back in the day, they tended to set the clocks at only 10 minutes! Not during the 1983 WC, thank god, because I'm not that good at speed Pente nor speed chess. 30 min. is enough though.

So, if it is "real games," played to a win that you want, then perhaps we can do that sometime soon with live games. At the moment that would require more focus than I can give. Perhaps soon. In the meantime, I'm not quite sure what we are trying to do at the moment with the turned-base game. I guess just to see if we can find a clear, succinct, forced win again N8.

Does that sound good for now?

Rollie

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 1:42 AM

Excellent!

I think you're analysis is sound Rollie.

I think after 2 ... N6 and then 3. G8, I believe our response is already settled, and I'll leave it to zoey to lock it in.

This should be an interesting game.

I would enjoy going back and trying another move such as M9 afterwards also but let's focus on this first line for now.

rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 1:55 AM

A basic strategy principle is reoccurring to me, though you guys are probably well-aware of it already:

Orthogonal captures are stronger than diagonal captures. This is because the two capturing stones work better orthogonally than they do diagonally. This is another nice thing about up2ng's move M9. In a potential capture-exchange, M9 offers up a diagonal pair for an orthogonal pair. P1 probably cannot count on ever capturing the diagonal pair, but must instead work with the coming keystones at either L10 or K11. I want to rethink my plan against N8 with this in mind.

It would be funny if we end up demonstrating that N8 is the best defense This brings to mind the related immediate 1) ... M9. Or for that matter, any P2 strategy involved in creating a diagonal pair on the first two moves, threatening to create a keystone in one of two places.

___________________________________

I'm starting to wonder if the reason why we used to answer 1) ... N8 with the old-school 2) N10, was for all the reasons listed above. Still, I want something more direct than that, something threatening to play 'away.'


Message was edited by: rollietesh at Apr 26, 2010 8:11 PM


rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 2:48 AM

zoeyk, Good luck on your book. It should be a good read, I look forward to it.

Keep in mind though that such a project is a labor of love and that there is no reasonable amount of money to be made. The market is too small. You will however have a few dozen, maybe a couple of hundred, very appreciative fans. I encourage you to do so.

Another consideration: If a big part of the book is about old-school stuff, then there unfortunately is not that much of it. In fact, the 1983 WC tournament felt a foundation had just been laid for serious Pente to now start to begin. Had tournament Pente lasted another 5 years or so, then I think we might have seen something spectacular. 1983 encouraged a lot of people to start studying Pente full-time. All kinds of great future tournaments and matches were about to occur. The 1984 WC Finals was already tentatively planned for Athens, Greece.

But alas, Gary sold the game to Parker Brothers, who then decided to halt tournament play. PB never seemed to grasp the marketing strategy that made Pente the fad it was. Sales collapsed as a result, the game sits in limbo.

So, your book will always be only just a hint of what might have been. I still strongly encourage you to go for it You might focus on how the game went into obscurity, then saw somewhat of a resurgence, and why that happened.

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 2:58 AM

Excellent point Rollie! Probably worthy of a seperate thread. I have personally been aware for a while that orthogonal trias and tesseras are stronger than diagonal ones -- think of all the ways you can build off an orthogonal tria without pairing up your stones. Also, creating a Hammer position is much stronger than the diagonal keystone attack where you must pair up your stones, or attack from the other angle, which does not line up with your other stones. In general, of course.

The same is clearly true of orthogonal captures vs. diagonal trias as you just mentioned although I'm not sure if anyone has put this concept plainly anywhere in these forums as you just have. Nice one!

-----------------

As for the M9 attack, yes, I have a tendency to try to create capture trade situations that I feel would benefit black -- in this case not just the fact that it is orthogonal trading with a diagonal, but also the resulting position leave P1 extremely spread out, and P2 much more compact, and "in-between" P1's position to some extent. So, often times one of P1's stones becomes stranded which is almost always a very good result for P2. Since you've hinted that you likely would not play into a capture trade in that particular position, I don't mind sharing these thoughts with you in advance of that potential game...

There are other reasons why I have personally felt for a while that 1 ... N8 might be the strongest starting position for black. Basically, when you put one white stone next to one black stone -- on the one hand, conceptually, this should be one of the strongest defensive positions for black since it "blocks" one direction of attack for white already. However, with white's constant material advantage in Pente, just blocking more and more potential lines is usually futile, so this tends to be strong for white. Another way to look at it is that black is blocking white and white is blocking black, and yet it's white's turn to move...

Or, perhaps more importantly, since white is initiating events, any time a black stone is next to a white stone, white is often looking to attack that stone by using a tria to force a pair, and then attacking that pair. If you consider the fact that white's strongest moves are generally on the vertical or horizontal axis (some strong players will disagree with this but I'm sticking to it), the ONLY starting move for black that does not allow white to play along the axis AND end up next to the black stone is ... 1 ... N8. So many of white's common attacking strategies are thrown off a bit by this move and different strategies are required.

rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 3:17 AM

up2ng, until contrary evidence can be demonstrated, your logic sounds solid.

I'm tempted to ask you what move you fear most against N8, but first I want to try and find that one 'unexpected' move that might still be laying hidden. Something that works perfectly regardless of which way P2 forces the keystone pair.

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 3:25 AM

Yes, there are moves to fear. In our experience, for almost every combination of 1st and 2nd moves (at least, reasonable ones), there is a solid 3rd move(s) available to white for a relatively straightforward victory and probably a handful of other ones that yield a "more difficult" victory.

As a result, one of the reasons why 1 ... N8 is appealing is that it increases the complexity -- which is almost always good for black when humans are playing, where increased complexity should yield an increased chance for error.

rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 7:03 PM

zoeyk, If you are up for it, i think it important to play out 1) K10, N8 2) G10, N6 3) G8 because this position addresses an essential question. Can P2 afford to play so far away from P1 and still be in the game? If P1 cannot demonstrate a clear and immediate win, then you will have shown that Pente is a much deeper game than I thought.

up2ng, Because of the threats that 1) ... N8 poses with either 2) ... M9 or 2) ... L10, it does appear that P1 cannot afford to play 'away,' and must instead engage more directly on the right side of the board. There is still the 'maybe' try of playing away with either 2) L13 or 2) M13, but if I had to play this position right now in a tournament, I'd give up on playing away and go with something along the N-file. Either 2) N12 or 2) N11 or simply the old-school 2) N10.

2) N10 has the advantage of being more 'involved' in the counters to P2's keystone-making threats; though at the cost of not threatening to 'play away.' So, let's jump to the chase. Since you are an N8 fan, you must have a pet line (or two) against 2) N10. If you can show that this position remains unclear, and that P1 does not have a clear winning advantage within 4 or 5 moves, then 1) ... N8 might well be the best defense. I'd have to dig much deeper to prove otherwise.

So that is the question/game I pose to you. Can you hold on after:

1) K10, N8
2) N10

Rollie

zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
Home page
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 27, 2010, 7:53 PM

i am possibly going to need to try 3 variations that im studying for our proposed opening. and ive been busy with work and family so bare with me here. the day after tomorrow ill have 2 days off.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 28, 2010, 12:21 AM

Rollie,

I've talked it over with zoey and we've agreed that I will take over the final decisions for these moves since I was the one pushing for 1 ... N8

Zoey is much more comfortable with the idea of playing 1 ... K9 in a seperate game with you if you have the time to respond to that also. He has a specific opening in mind that he wants to try. He was just being agreeable with N8 and then I went along with his second move of N6, haha, I guess collaboration on one side of a pente game can be tricky.

First, with regards to your last post: The answer is, yes, P2 can afford to play this far away from P1 and has extremely strong lines for doing so -- you would be amazed at some of the things that have happened with it and it was one of the reasons why I wanted to try it against you. Quite frankly, the games in the newsletters using this move appear weak from both sides to me, which tends to indicate that it simply was not commonly played or studied at the time. Now, this isn't to say that P2 "should" win from out here -- as we agree P2 should not win from any 1st move available.

We can demonstrate through this move that Pente is a very deep game -- but it may not necessarily work out in this particular game. But rest assured there are seriously difficult games for white originating from 1 ... N8.

As for how white should respond to N8, yes there are particular threats that white must be aware of, and I will say that they do not all relate to keystone attacks. White does not necessarily have to engage more directly -- white can play away, but must do so carefully. The tactic for white from that point forward will be to steer the action away from black's stones. Alternatively, white can "engage" with black as you've put it by playing close. Notice, as I mentioned before, that N8 is the only position where white cannot directly engage right next to that stone without playing the 2nd move off-axis.

I would find the 1. K10, N8; 2. N10 opening extremely interesting with you Rollie. This is another case where there were a couple of games in the old newsletters that can also be improved from both sides. In my experience, white has a very difficult time after 2 ... L6, a move that will appear familiar to you, but trust me that line can become extremely complex. I think that white should still win it, but not as easily as occurred in those old newsletters.

I do indeed have a few 'pet' lines involving N8 using various strategies.

To answer your question, and maybe we can continue this game as well as it looks like we would both find it very interesting. My response is:

2 ... L6

Here is the board:

Game #1

K10,N8,N10,L6,L9,M7,O9,P8


Moving on:

As I mentioned, I will be taking over the game in progress. I have and will continue to collaborate with several other players to make my moves as Player 2. Here is the next move for that game:

Game #2

K10,N8,G10,N6,G8,N7,N9,O7


Finally, zoey is requesting a new game with you, playing out his original idea for an opening. I hope you will be able to find the time to play out these few games at the same time, since they are all interesting for different reasons.

Here is zoey's board:

Game #3

K10,K9,N10,M8


As the games get longer I will change them into game applets that we can scroll through. But for now, the board snapshots are much easier to load.

We eagerly await your responses on these three games!


Message was edited by: up2ng at Apr 27, 2010 9:13 PM


Message was edited by: up2ng at Apr 28, 2010 9:58 PM


Message was edited by: up2ng at Apr 28, 2010 9:58 PM


Message was edited by: up2ng at Apr 30, 2010 7:52 PM


Message was edited by: up2ng at Apr 30, 2010 8:25 PM


zoeyk

Posts: 1,964
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
Home page
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 28, 2010, 12:27 AM

to up2ng;
im off to work now, but when i get home i might make a post that contradicts your post.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
ggabrel

Posts: 3
Registered: Jul 21, 2009
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 28, 2010, 1:27 AM

Great to see such interest and action. Thanks to Rollie for reaching out, and inviting me to witness and enjoy. I would enjoy tutorial myself some day on the game-- a cooking class if you will.

Yours truly, Gary Gabrel

rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 28, 2010, 2:00 AM

Okay, I'll play all three games, though perhaps at different rates.

Is there some way I can directly update the diagrams themselves?

You guys will really be doing something if you show that P2 can hold Game 2

GAME 1: 3) L9

GAME 2: 4) N9

GAME 3: 2) N10

________________

If someone noticed that I just changed my GAME 3 move, I originally wrote 2) R3 (Still had old-school notation in mind. R3 with your notation would have been a very interesting move indeed!


Message was edited by: rollietesh at Apr 27, 2010 9:10 PM


rollietesh

Posts: 110
Registered: Apr 17, 2010
Age: 51
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted: Apr 28, 2010, 2:04 AM

Wow, the great Gary Gabrel is amongst us! You are looking good Gary, write to me sometime at my email. I'm having to wipe off a quarter-century of cobwebs myself.

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