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Topic: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Replies: 53   Views: 19,933   Pages: 4   Last Post: May 30, 2023, 3:24 PM by: watsu

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Replies: 53   Views: 19,933   Pages: 4   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 | Next ]
invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 5, 2023, 4:48 AM

the one thing i dont see in these comments regarding initiative vs momentum is the word 'potential'.
seems to me that would be a key component.
that being said, i have lost many a game w/ unrealized potential.

bloodied but unbowed
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 5, 2023, 3:01 PM

How would you personally define it in terms of pente?

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 6, 2023, 6:51 AM

as i assume there is no single perfect game (surely there are variations) i extrapolate that there are variances also in the same 'perfect' game. by which i mean in the first few moves, each player is reacting to the other to establish said initiative.
so while white's 4th is already in whites mind at the onset, he has to adjust according to p2's possible unpredictability.
which as you have stated is p2's job.
i also guess it goes to what you said about a perfect game involving 4 losses by white in that sometimes what may be the most advantageous move atm may not be the one that offers the most potential in the end.
i guess that's how i would define 'potential'
just saying that there seems to be many paths to a perfect game and it would be wise to choose those that offer the most options.

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 6, 2023, 6:58 AM

mebbe a better way to say it is that either players strongest move at that time isnt always the move that offers the most potential for development.

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 6, 2023, 7:36 AM

and for extra points... can we calculate how many perfect game combinations there are?
if one considers the quadrant and mirror principles laid out in zoeyk's 'pente opening book' then the number seems relatively finite.

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watsu

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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 6, 2023, 2:06 PM

I'd say # of perfect games < 3^40 which is <10^20. Roughly as many as possible games of checkers +/- a few orders.of magnitude, in other words. First and second move restrictions + mirrors already limit things out of the gate, and then black is limited to moves which prolong the loss and white to moves which expedite the win. Keep in mind this doesn't distinguish between different move orders which arrive at the same eventual position. If only one path is counted towards a win (when move order is the only difference in a game) then this number would be lower.


Message was edited by: watsu at May 6, 2023, 6:50 PM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 7, 2023, 8:00 AM

while not the intent of this forum thread, this only confirms my long-held suspicion that watsu is actually an advanced a.i.

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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 7, 2023, 8:39 AM

I do not see this potential word being applied to white. Whites last move was either winning, or not winning. If last move is winning, then it means all future moves will be winning if no human error.. No need for many ways or paths to win. Unnecessary. Superfluous.
As to Black, black either forces a prolonged loss with strong series, or does confusing move aimed at inducing human error on whites part. This, confusing move, often a novelty, falls under both psychology attack on white, and the p1's human ability to play Tactically. This could possibly use the word potential.

Potential for white to make human error because of blacks confusing move.


.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 21, 2023, 5:30 AM

ok, just one question, z...
what is your percentage of wins as p1 vs p2?

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watsu

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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 21, 2023, 1:59 PM

@invictus - that's not a question which has an easy precise answer as stated. Do you mean TB only, live only or a combination of the two? Do you mean over entire career or as a master? Do you want over the board stats and stats from other sites, or just here? Timeouts included in stats or not? Do you want stats against all players or only against players of a certain level? Rated games only, or all games? Why not ask all master level players to get a better sense of whatever exactly you want to know with that vague question?

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 22, 2023, 12:59 AM

Good points watsu.
Majority of my games are live. Majority of my live games are unrated. I hit 1900 in live play in 2008.
As to turn based, majority of my TB loses are actually time outs.
As to live play, which holds most data on me, unfortunately there isn't a way to filter by rated only. As to my unrated games, many I played strong, some I did experimentationally or gave players chance.
If combining all live rated and live unrated from 2008 when I hit 1900, all the way till now,
As player 1, I won 91.3% of the time.
As player 2, I won 78.2% of the time.
These % are calculated on thousands of games played.

I don't have much of a turn based history, as it was not my focus for most of my career. My solutions were generally calculated on the fly within 20 minutes timer. But if my entire career was TB, with time to deep study, im certain my player one solutions would had been even better in certain lines.
Not sure of purpose of your question, but,
Hope that helps.

Ps. Just checked. On my profile page, of game types, shows rated percentage. Ill assume you saw that and want to make some point. But, keep in mind, by far, nearly all of my rated games were from before I became master. When I wasn't good at pente yet. So, that % is misleading. Majority of that % is prior 2008.
Of the rated sets i did as a master, I generally kicked ***. Because I was selective usually and studied for rated sets and took them seriously. My goal was to reach #1 on live rated board. I only reached #2, and gave up on that idea. Nosovs deserves #1 spot anyways.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at May 22, 2023, 1:22 AM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 22, 2023, 3:21 AM

z, you are a pente master so uniquely qualified to answer.
my point being that if there is only a 13 point difference between a pente masters game for black or white then perhaps the final solution could rest in blacks play.
forgive my naivete and perhaps just my desire to root for the underdog, lol
very impressive stats, btw!

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 22, 2023, 3:35 AM

watsu, you are right.
its an imperfect research.
i did not define it well.
but only looking for a general sample as i doubt most top players care to post their percentages of wins as p1/p2.
i would be interested to see yours according to the terms z answered.
and any other players that cares to post in the interest of an abundance of research.
but really only positing the idea that if top players percentages between wins as black vs wins as white are so close then a possibilty exists for for black to have the final solution in a perfect game.
to quote lennon "you can say i'm a dreamer..."

bloodied but unbowed
watsu

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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 22, 2023, 5:39 AM

I'm not (and never have been) a 1900 rated live player, so I can't answer according to Z's terms. Excluding timeouts, 2300+ rated TB players have won TB Pente games against me as P1 a bit under 7% of the time (small sample size). As P2, again excluding timeouts, I have won 64% of my games against 2300+ rated players.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 22, 2023, 11:51 AM

Most players i have faced would make grave errors as p1 within their first 3 moves. And I know how to exploit those common basic errors. It does not mean p2 is as strong as p1. Seeking masters % is not going to yield what you are looking for. Some sort of proof that maybe p2 wins in perfect play. I assure you, no such proof exists. But, alas, it seems apparent to me, that you can never convince a non master of this. Its perhaps something you only come to know to be true, once you've reached a high enough level of understanding of the game. Where you realize p1 has such a huge advantage over p2, and that p2 shall always lose in perfect play.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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