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Topic: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 8:25 PM

level 1 adzi is H10 move which P1 wins, P1 decides that maintaining material is more important than immediately attacking P2. how ever equally P1 could had captured and still won, but is perhaps less efficient. but most importantly P1 remembers logical rule of adzi, which is "don't capture opponent's stones, and keep your tempo in attacking. Continue; building winning combinations, or improving your position.
When you have no good idea of how to improve your position, then you can capture"
:

P1 has only 2 good moves. both win. capture black stones, or defend white stones from being captured. since capturing violates adzi rule, and defending from capture does not, and either way wins, then correct move is defend from capture. unless, it can be proven that capturing is far more efficient than defending from capture. efficiency is a factor when choosing from two winning paths.


K10,K9,N10,L8,J10,L10,H10


level 2 adzi is ignoring capture threat and going N12 which P1 wins. P1 realizes that its best to offer material to continue developing structure in such a way that builds tempo:


K10,K9,N10,L11,L12,M11,M10,O10,N12


level 3 adzi aleph_1 vs nosovs at brainking site:
here aleph tries weak adzi, which nosovs exploits with strong adzi. side note, nosovs thinks aleph is richardiii.





there is example of level 4 adzi, but i can not locate the game yet.

(from nosovs:"Adzi - This is understanding of your own strategy, and ignoring atari , because of attacking opponent. Because when you capture - you lose temp. So , that is keeping temp of your own attack",..."adzi is a part of initiative".)

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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 9:01 PM

not every high level game employs adzi. some games P2 demands a knife fight of captures with a draw opening. or some games P1 just cant seem to get a pente because of strong P2 defenses, and P1 is forced to go for 5 captures.

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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 9:39 PM

arguably example of perfect play. Goes to 24 moves each, 2 moves past my predicted max average (rare case). P1 wins by captures. P2 gets 4 captures. P1 employs adzi with move combo on moves 8 and 9 to maintain tempo (J14,J9).





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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 10:02 PM

unsure if this is helpful, but this is some information from my Pente Opening Theory page:





Okay let's define some terms! by; karlw

Forcing move: A move which, if unanswered, leads to certain victory for the mover. Examples include: Extension to 4, Stretch 4, Split 4, Stretch 5, Split 5, Threat of 5th capture.

Initiative: The person who has control of the game has the initiative. White begins with the initiative because black must play defense if white knows how to build momentum.
When a player has the initiative, it is in his best interest to keep the initiative by playing forcing moves and making trias. Plays by him are either sente, meaning they retain the initiative,
or gote, meaning they give up the initiative.

There are two kinds of initiative, simple initiative and self-sustaining initiative. Simple initiative is exemplified by the open 3. Playing an open 3 gives you initiative, because although
it's not a forcing move, the other player has to answer after he runs out of forcing moves otherwise he will lose in 2 moves (Open 4 -> victory). But after he blocks that open 3, you can extend
or stretch, then...nothing. Simple initiative runs out.

Self-sustaining initiative, on the other hand, if played properly, never runs out, and 99% of the time leads to a win. It is such an important pente concept that I give it a new name:

Momentum: Momentum is probably the dominant concept of pente openings. It is a 3-stone shape that, although not giving the player any immediate initiative, creates so much momentum that,
if not properly blocked by the other player, leads to certain victory.

Momentum is important because it is what forces black to play defense in the opening. If black ignores white, momentum will make him pay, because even though white has the 2nd move restriction,
he can still build momentum in his first 3 moves. There are countless ways for white to build momentum.





=Sente= moves that result in taking and holding the initiative as
one player attacks, and the other defends in gote -
- or does not currently need to respond to moves made by his opponent -
- initiative - momentum - Offence -
- forcing control of board flow temporarily or permanently
sente: referring to a move, strategy, or position in which you retain the initiative.
Compare gote, which describes any move, strategy, or position in which you lose
or sacrifice the initiative, willingly or no.



>=Sente= moves that result in taking and holding the initiative as
one player attacks, and the other defends in gote -
- or does not currently need to respond to moves made by his opponent -
- initiative - momentum - Offence -
- forcing control of board flow temporarily or permanently
sente: referring to a move, strategy, or position in which you retain the initiative.
Compare gote, which describes any move, strategy, or position in which you lose
or sacrifice the initiative, willingly or no.




shapes are just one category by; up2ng

Remember, shapes are just one category of tools in the toolbox for white to start its attack. There are many other important concepts at play as well such as lining up a cap trade, setting up
keystone threats, knowing when to play a building move away from the action and when to take an inside position.

For third moves, there are a few basic concepts. First, it rarely makes sense for white to spread itself out too far too early in the game. it would be highly unusual and
almost always incorrect for white to choose a 3rd move that is outside the rectangle created by the K and N lines and the 8 and 13 lines. In other words, white's first 3 stones should usually
fit inside of a 4x4 grid, unless there is a compelling reason to try something else. Next, at least 2 of white's first 3 stones should form a "potential" -- meaning they should line up so that
they can form a 3 on the next move. Potentials can be XX, X_X, or X__X.







Pente Terms; by Richardiii

I have much more to say about openings, but in an address to:

a) Create a pente jargon which will make it easier to describe complex positions and patterns

Here?s some pente jargon that I use, some are old and some are mine.

Cap : to capture, ie to take a pair

Atari : (a Japanese Go term)to lay a stone that threatens to cap.

Extend : to lay a stone on the end of one?s own existing line of connected stones.

Sente : a Japanese Go term meaning ?initiative? or the ability to lay a stone that demands a continuing defensive posture from one's opponent.

Tres : 3 stones in a line.

Split 3 : a tres formed with a pair, a space, and then one more stone.

Posted or Divided 3 : a stone, a space, a stone, a space, and one more stone all of the same color.

Open 4 : 4 stones in a row with no defending stones at either end

Extended 4 : a 4 formed by 3 stones, a space, and one more stone.

Split 4 : a 4 formed by a pair, a space, and a second pair.

Trap : to lay a stone that forces one?s opponent to play into atari against himself.

Soft block : to block one space beyond the end of a tres or pair in such a way that denies one?s opponent an extension into sente on one end.

Draw : to make a pair that temps ones? opponent to play an atari move. An opening tactic favored by many players such as up2ng.

Winding the Clock : laying consecutive split 3?s in such a manner that as one?s opponent keeps playing into the split, and the split 3?s keep forming. The overall pattern evolves in a circular pattern of split 3?s. this pattern must be set up right for proper execution or it fails, but when it is set up right, it is a beauty to behold.


more terms forthcoming.

R3




These are some GO terms that can be used for Pente



=yosu= means situation or the state of things



=miru= is "to see"



=Yosu-miru=
to "see how things stand"



=Sente= moves that result in taking and holding the initiative as
one player attacks, and the other defends in gote -
- or does not currently need to respond to moves made by his opponent -
- initiative - momentum - Offence -
- forcing control of board flow temporarily or permanently
sente: referring to a move, strategy, or position in which you retain the initiative. Compare gote, which describes any move, strategy, or position in which you lose or sacrifice the initiative, willingly or no.



=kikashi= (forcing move)



=Gote= means "succeeding move" lit: "after hand",
the opposite of sente, meaning "preceding move" (lit: "before hand")
- on defense -
- being forced temporarily or permanently into either
limited choices or a singular choice



=Kiai= snatching sente away from the opponent - keeping sente -
- or answering a kikashi in an unexpected way -
- agresive defense -
or - to answer opponent by setting a trap in a subtle and un-noticed
way to surprize with ambushing attack/trap thus if un-noticed and un-answered
will defuse opponents sente-
- smoke and mirrors or illusion when on defense



=shibaraku=
yosu o miru beki da, better to wait and see for a little while -
- A probe - a sacrifice of a stone, but is designed to yield a very sophisticated
kind of information about a developing group and how best to attack it



=tenuki= (ignoring the opponent),as a kind of gambit. A player can break out of gote,
and can gain sente, by choosing to accept some future loss, on the local level,
in order to take the initiative to play elsewhere.





Atari - next move will be capture, so you have to react on this treat.
There is different Atari
Atari-4 (atari with four after capture),
Atari-4* (atari with 5 -th capture threat)
Atari-3 (atari with three after capture)
Atari-3* (atari with 4 -th capture threat, and possibility make atari-4* next move)
Atari - just capture
The level of treat is different - that is important.

Fukumi - possibility to make 4x3 next move.

Adzi - This is understanding of your own strategy, and ignoring atari , because of attacking opponent. Because when you capture - you lose temp. So , that is keeping temp of your own attack













Yosu-miru
A probe. A yosu-miru move is, in some sense, a sacrifice of a stone,
but is designed to yield a very sophisticated kind of information
about a developing group and how best to attack it, based on its
response. Yosu-miru draws on other concepts such as kikashi, aji,
and korigatachi.

yosu means situation or the state of things, and (miru) is "to see",
thus "yosu o miru", to "see how things stand". In Japanese this
expression is usually used to say that it's better to wait and see
before taking an action (e.g. "shibaraku yosu o miru beki da", it's
better to wait and see for a little while). It is not a single word
or a set phrase except
in Western Go literature, and "probe" is the preferred word, being
self-explanatory and actually used by the speakers of its originating
language.

Kiai
In the context of Go, kiai often translates as "fighting spirit",
i.e. aggressiveness or initiative, but not unthinking greed. Kiai
means keeping sente, that is not letting the opponent have his or
her way. A sensei might say, "You play too passively - put some kiai
in your moves!? A passive player may follow an opponent around the
board responding to each move in turn. Kiai moves are the opposite
of passive or submissive and a player showing kiai will dictate the
flow of play. Kiai moves can catch an opponent off-balance and turn
the game around. Examples of kiai moves include snatching sente away
from the opponent; defending with a move that also counter-attacks;
or answering a kikashi (forcing move) in an unexpected way. Kiai is
also a term used in Japanese martial arts, usually as a name for a
loud yell accompanying an attack. Obviously this is outwardly more
restrained in the context of a board game, but it is intended to be
in the same spirit.

Gote and Sente
A move that leaves the player an overwhelming follow-up move, and
thus forces the opponent to respond, is said to have "sente," or
"initiative"; the opponent has "gote". In most games, the player
who keeps sente most of the time will win.

Gote means "succeeding move" (lit: "after hand"), the opposite of
sente, meaning "preceding move" (lit: "before hand"). Sente is a
term to describe which player has the initiative in the game, and
which moves result in taking and holding the initiative. More
precisely, as one player attacks, and the other defends in gote,
it can be said that they respectively do and do not have the
initiative. The situation of having sente is favorable, permitting
control of the flow of the game.

Applying these concepts to a whole sequence is basic to higher strategy.
If Black starts a sequence that properly ends in an even number of plays,
Black retains sente in doing this. If Black starts a sequence that properly
ends after an odd number of plays, Black loses sente and takes gote. Accepting
gote should only be in return for some profitable exchange. Correct play in
the endgame can consist of playing available sente sequences, and then taking
the largest gote sequence on the board. That description is a simplification,
though. A reverse sente play is a special type of gote play, preventing the
opponent from making some sente move. The relative value of reverse sente
plays depends on the overall position, but one can count it as twice the
value of what it would be if purely gote.

A player has sente if he does not currently need to respond to moves made
by his opponent. This can be achieved by tenuki (ignoring the opponent),
as a kind of gambit. A player can break out of gote, and can gain sente,
by choosing to accept some future loss, on the local level, in order to
take the initiative to play elsewhere.

In the case that neither of the players directly respond to each other's
moves, the game can become difficult. Both players will have sente on their
turn, and the moves they are making are gote. This will likely end in large
exchanges, or one player will be shown to have a weaker position, and will
have to start answering to avoid heavy damage.





the following are not Go terms;

=momentum= the impetus to go forward, develop, or get stronger


=initiative= a first step; a commencing move -
the right or power to initiate something -
on one's own initiative without being prompted -
the first of a series of actions -
The power or ability to begin or to follow through energetically with a plan or task -
A beginning or introductory step -

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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 10:22 PM

here is old thread about adzi which i made. unfortunately many pictures on there have been lost.

https://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=27&threadID=4643&tstart=105


It has been stressed by nosovs that this is a very important concept in Pente that is not known enough.

its not a move, its a concept he has explained.

in Go they explain it with an analogy;

"Adzi is like a stone in your shoe when you are late. The stone hurts and you can't run as fast, but because you are late, you cannot stop to take it out."



And, nosovs has said;
easy speaking, it means to not capture opponent's stones, and keep your tempo in attacking. Continue; building winning combinations, or improving your position.
When you have no good idea of how to improve your position, then you can capture.





here in this game moves 6 and 7 show concept of type of adzi:







here is another example. nosovs's 4th 5th 6th move combo is adzi as a whole. he has givin up his pair, and declined taking the opponents pair, so that he could utilize this timing to leap into position.













and yet another example of where nosovs offers his pair on the right, to then leap to position on the left.
note that, if the pair to the right wasn't offered first, the pair to the left wouldnt work. these none local moves may not seem connected geographically, but they are connected through the adzi principle of tempo's time and space balance.




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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 10:37 PM

P1 is supposed to capture as last resort, when no way to continue building winning position through capture avoidance. Therefore knowing that, often P2 will try to pressure P1 into a capture trade through many different methods.

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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 10:51 PM

here in tourney, zoeyk vs karlw. i believe was perfect play. 22 moves, p2 gets 4 captures, P1 gets pente. Side note, on move 20 karlw said "no justice in this world
Karl played very aggressive. many forcing moves and pressured me to take 3 captures. it wasn't until my 13th move that i could take the initiative and increase my winning tempo. A dangerous opening for any novice to face as P1.


My moves " 8, 14, 16, 17 " are understanding of adzi. this is arguably very rare example of where capturing can be considered a part of a adzi combination in my humble opinion.




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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 10:59 PM

here is not example of both sides doing perfect play. instead, an example of efficiency when more than one path to win. showing that, sometimes a master wins in many moves but could had won in less moves. here, both I and karlw simultaneously challenged secshun8 to the same opening. P1's 8th move to L8 was a fatal mistake. P2 has sure win. however there is more than one way to skin a cat. Karlw chose a path which won in a lengthily 26 moves. I chose a path which won in 22 moves.
(Karlw actually won in 27 moves, but Secshun8 failed to cap to S13 on move 26)






Here my moves 16, 17, 18, are complex adzi combination. offering much material, that he dare not take, due to instant death.




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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 17, 2023, 1:03 AM

Superior tempo, and giving away initiative temporarily with the assurance that you will regain it.
Here is over simplified example. P1 makes a forcing 3, but now P2 blocks it with a forcing 3. P1 blocks the 3, and has no current forcing moves to show for it. However as P2 examines the pattern, P2 realizes they are now screwed. P1 wins shortly thereafter.




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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: Apr 17, 2023, 2:10 AM

Vic i never really answered your question exactly. I just know that p2 can get 4 caps if they really want. And can push to 22 moves as well. Therefore, why would a perfect game not be 22 moves and 4 caps? As to why, perhaps requires more meditation for me to give exact scientific mathematical answer.

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watsu

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 18, 2023, 8:23 AM

That scrolling text is pretty cool! Thank you for the adzi tutorial!

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 22, 2023, 12:36 AM

The following was a post from nosovs, during a discussion of defining Initiative.

http://brainking.com/ru/ArchivedGame?g=3097658&i=18
9... R11

Interesting position in game gaylen-Richardiii at Brainking
The Initiative seems at Gaylen side but seems Richard has sure win in this position. How you can define such positions, and how you can define the plan on continue this position.
May be gaylen can try to defend it by moves like 10 J9 ?

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teasera

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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: Apr 25, 2023, 5:10 PM

How is a perfect game not 5 plays by white? Also, is it possible to create something perfect with one player in active opposition to the quest for perfection?

watsu

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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: Apr 25, 2023, 6:07 PM

@teasera - winning in 5 moves as white says nothing about the play of white and everything about the lack of play by black. Under discussion here is optimal play by white against optimal play by black.

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invictus

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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 4, 2023, 5:28 AM

thank you!
i am unsure that my original question was really answered but i am thankful for the dissemination of knowledge.
as i stated in my original post i am "asking greater minds' so it will take me a bit to absorb all of the conceptual.
i am especially glad to see nosovs comments (secondhand)
on game philosophy.
ty zoeyk and watsu!

bloodied but unbowed
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