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Topic: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Replies: 53   Views: 19,932   Pages: 4   Last Post: May 30, 2023, 3:24 PM by: watsu

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karlw

Posts: 968
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 23, 2023, 7:13 AM

As the current top-rated TB player on this site and defending masters tournament champion, I feel that it is my duty to weigh in on this all-important subject.

After years of deep study and intense philosophical debate, scouring every possible variation (and more than a few impossible ones), I have reached the following final inescapable conclusion:

With perfect play, pente is a draw. 181 moves for P1, 180 for P2.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 23, 2023, 10:42 AM

Funny thing is someone will take karl serious.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,427
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 23, 2023, 1:48 PM

It's an interesting question, though, whether a (non optimal) Pente game ever could end in a full board draw. One I've been asked about frequently when I try to explain the differences between swap2 Pente and gomoku.
ETA: rephrasing this, what (if any) is the minimum number of legally placed Pente stones on a board such that optimal further play by both players results in a full board draw? Simplifying slightly, let's make the board size 15x15.


Message was edited by: watsu at May 23, 2023, 2:19 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at May 23, 2023, 2:21 PM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
watsu

Posts: 1,427
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 23, 2023, 6:12 PM

As a follow up to my last post, supposing that there are no positions greater than 60 stones removed from a full board in which neither side can win with optimal play, but that there are 15x15 Pente positions in which neither side can win in under thirty moves, assuming optimal play by both players. Would you play a set of computer generated positions of this type against other players, assuming each player has the opportunity to pick a side once during the set? Sort of a computer assisted opening position (roughly) equal D (or swap2) Pente, basically.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 24, 2023, 2:01 AM

Now the thread is drifting into variants, sure why not....lol

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
owen_

Posts: 26
Registered: Dec 1, 2022
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 30, 2023, 11:28 AM

I believe it can.

As a first estimation, I'd say that a position with a complete horse net for both colours is built. It takes 90 moves. The net makes 5-in-a-row win impossible and seems it's manageable to avoid captures for both colors.

I'm not that good in pente, maybe it's still winnable? But I doubt it =)

owen_

Posts: 26
Registered: Dec 1, 2022
Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 30, 2023, 11:30 AM
horse_net_full.GIF (16.3 K)

Here.

watsu

Posts: 1,427
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 30, 2023, 2:14 PM

The horse net can be destroyed by captures with optimal play before it ever gets off the ground in Pente, though, so the question would be when does making it become an optimal move for both sides. I have a couple of examples of gomoku players trying to use it against me in swap2 Pente in this thread: https://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=27&threadID=232770&tstart=0

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
watsu

Posts: 1,427
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: May 30, 2023, 3:24 PM

Also, even after the full horse net is completed on the board, it seems one side or the other could still win by captures with further play, but then it would become a parity game at that point. Example- P4 is a safe move for both players, but M4 only for one player, so optimally P4 should be played before M4. To continue towards a draw, all the spots like M4 have to be filled first.


Message was edited by: watsu at May 30, 2023, 3:42 PM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Replies: 53   Views: 19,932   Pages: 4   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 ]
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