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Topic: are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Replies: 53   Views: 29,648   Pages: 4   Last Post: May 30, 2023, 3:24 PM by: watsu

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invictus

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From: north carolina
Age: 48
are we sure??? --- and Adzi
Posted: Apr 12, 2023, 6:50 PM

another player recently messaged me and asked about the adage "white wins in a perfect game."

i find this interesting because i too have often wondered.
for one thing, the statement is somewhat unclear.
a standard pente set comes w/ 32 stones per player.
if it is game over after 32 stones and both players play a perfect game then isnt it a draw?
a series of balanced thrusts and parries?

if no stone limit then as there are 361 spaces on the board white would have the last stone as well as the first.
while that sounds a great advantage, it seems it would still require black to misstep.

so the only thing that makes sense to me is that in perfect play the game will last less than 32 moves.
that it is inevitable that white builds a winning structure before black simply because white moves first.
mebbe gary had this figured out when he designed the game.
dunno, lol.
and not sure i buy it.
so the question is, how many moves is the perfect game?


p.s. don't say '42' z, lol

bloodied but unbowed

watsu

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 12, 2023, 7:25 PM

Pro (tournament) rules here? Gary Barnes estimated it at 20 moves per player about 20 years ago. I've seen a few lines which don't reach a win until a few moves after that, but they are likely not "perfect" lines in the sense of white winning in as few moves as possible and black prolonging the game as long as possible. 32 stones each is fine for nearly all variants, except those involving keryo captures, I think.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
isuckbbcok

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Registered: Feb 12, 2023
Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 12, 2023, 9:43 PM

actually, my old Pente set (c. 1986) has 4 sets of stones with 40 stones per set. If if matters, it was the rolled board type, black tube, and the four colors of stones are red, green, clear, and yellow. I am pretty sure that I got two of the stones separately from the board.

HTH!

Scott

zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 12, 2023, 11:21 PM

If perfect play, and p1 is very efficient, and p2s opening is strongest, I believe average is 18 to 22 stones each. In weaker play by p2, p1 should win around 12 to 13 moves.
And yes, as to pente, in perfect play p1 shall always win. If p1 is efficient, the game can not reach 32 stones each.
Other variants may be different. In boat pente, I think p1 wins, but in wedge p2 wins, so p1 must find alternate offensive there. Watsu has studied that more so I would respect his opinion on the boat wedge topic.

But as to pente, for many it is often hard to believe, that p1 always wins in perfect play. But once any player reaches masters level, real masters level, they then know it for a fact without question. Just my 2 cents

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 13, 2023, 1:47 AM

so... any game that lasts less than 18 moves likely is the result of black stumbling (assuming white wins) and any game over 22 moves (again assuming white wins) means white stumbled and recovered?

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 13, 2023, 2:00 AM

so, not to be too callous, but 18-22 moves is the sweet spot for a perfect game.
while i am no master, simply declaring "white wins" is not an argument, z.
until there is a perfect game...

bloodied but unbowed
watsu

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 13, 2023, 2:24 AM

@zoeyk - who wins the wedge in Boat is, in my view, a very interesting (and perhaps fundamental) question for Pente variants. I think in a wedge only ten game Boat Pente match against either you or pente_gon I'd lose more (perhaps quite a few more) as white than I won. But, I also think that in a ten game wedge only Boat Pente match between you and pente_gon white might win more often than black. Regardless, though, I would predict that the games would be finished with fewer than 60 stones played.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 13, 2023, 11:34 AM

@ vic, P1 has the win as long as p1 does not make error. Its simply a fact. Sorry not prepared to argue it. Its simply what I know to be true. Feel free to believe what you like. Disagreeing doesn't affect my end.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 13, 2023, 6:32 PM

Less than 18 doesn't mean p2 stumbled. Some p2 openings have a slower build up than others. The wedge and Boston can be examples. Other p2 openings can have faster build up, and can be just as strong, and where p2 moves just as strong, but totalling less moves. Not every opening is the same. Good games have 3 stages. Opening, mid game, end game. Each stage can vary in length depending the opening. Some openings, p1 can surprise early with creatively devastating moves early. I was simply giving a average.
Besides, p2 starts with a loss. P2s job is smoke and mirrors, attempting to trick p1 into making error. P2 can't stumble really until p1 has made a fatal error, and p2 fails to exploit it. If P1 wins in an excessive amount of moves, it doesn't necessarily mean p1 stumbled. Its possible p1 simply chose a sub optimal slow winning path. Or perhaps strung it along like when a cat plays with a mouse. As to defining what strength means for P2, i have over simplified, as it can be a rather deep subject, involving both mathematically strong, and psychologically strong, universally strong, and individually strong, among other things.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Apr 13, 2023, 9:49 PM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 433
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 14, 2023, 4:45 AM

i am not saying the old adage isnt true.
i am simply asking better minds why.

i do understand this much...
assuming no caps, white is either 1 stone up or tied and black is either 1 stone down or tied.
that much is indisputable.
seems a clear advantage.

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 14, 2023, 5:01 AM

which raises my tangential question...
does a perfect game involve caps?
and if so, how many?

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zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 15, 2023, 6:36 PM

P1 and P2 are never tied. You are thinking of chess. P1 is always ahead unless p1 makes error. If p1 makes error then p2 is ahead.
In a perfect game p2 will get 4 caps and lose.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 433
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 2:04 AM

if i understand correctly, you are saying that in a perfect game white will sacrifice 4 pairs to black so white has final win and none of those pair losses are missteps but are part of the strategy?
like sacrificing pawns?

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 433
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From: north carolina
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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 2:21 AM

a queen's gambit...

bloodied but unbowed
zoeyk

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Re: are we sure???
Posted: Apr 16, 2023, 7:37 PM

Sort of. Its complex to answer. Involves several fundamentals, such as adzi for example. Essentially white isn't always bothered about losing material as long as white maintains tempo. In chess players want to control center territory, and pieces have value although position can trump material advantage in certain instances of chess. I don't like comparing to chess. While they can share some similarities, Chess is a different game. But, in adzi some times white will defend from capture to maintain tempo. And adzi is not the only fundamental to discuss but this would get more complex than im prepared to write about in the moment.
Don't compare tempo to initiative although adzi can be a part of initiative. In keeping superior tempo, you will win. Tempo does not mean you are always doing forcing moves. In initiative, you are forcing (or posing questions which command an answer). And you can temporarily give away your initiative with the assurance that you will regain it later. there is also temporary initiative which runs out and then loses. In pente p1 and p2 are in race. P1 starts ahead down the track. For p2 to win, p2 must either run twice as fast, or p1 must stumble. Initiative is more of a stage of tempo.

as to queens gambit, White appears to sacrifice the c-pawn; however, this could be considered a misnomer as Black cannot retain the pawn without incurring a disadvantage. which i supposed may be similar to adzi? but i don't play chess enough.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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