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Topic: Ninuki Renju variant
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attwo

Posts: 14
Registered: Aug 5, 2008
From: Italy
Age: 13
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 9:33 AM

Well, redsky said "It's the beautiful sublimity of the game and the potential to knock the King (P1) off the mountain that that keeps me (and many others) coming back regardless"
Since you said that, you admit that a king (P1) exist, and you admit that pente has a serious problem.

Watsu's data:
redsky_iv 0.646 / 0.569 / +0.077
richardiii 0.891 / 0.792 / +0.099
nosovs 0.932 / 0.742 / +0.190
karlw 0.796 / 0.638 / +0.158
melanie 0.595 / 0.481 / +0.114
zoeyk 0.785 / 0.711 / +0.084
jayfreole 0.639 / 0.537 / +0.102
============================
avreage +0.118

also if I cannot figure why:
attwo 0.543 / 0.564 / -0.021


Everyone know that the rules should be changed, beginners and experts, grays and reds. Our great problem is how to do that; make a fairer game but don't let it become an člite game, unknown by the most people. That's impossible. Pente is "radicated" in the minds of players with all its "culture" of the P1 advantage, the potential "to knock the king off the mountain" which redsky was speaking of.
We have two choices: a) sit around a table and say: Well, the actual pente tournament rule is too unfair. The new one is... b) stop discussing that.

------

P.S: watsu, you are still confusing solution with fairness. Checkers is a strongly unbalanced game, but it's solved into a draw, tic tac toe, the same. Chess odds are 51/49 between beginners and 53/47 at the top level (wikipedia)


zoeyk

Posts: 1,960
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 9:55 AM

im a little tired,..but im not sure if this math is being done correctly,..ill check it more after work tomarrow.
something didn't look right..

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
redsky_iv

Posts: 107
Registered: Feb 17, 2008
From: Edge of Space
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 10:07 AM

Actually I was using a metaphor for the purpose of illustration attwo, not trying to say that a literal 'king' to knock off the mountain is what keeps me coming back, and I didn't admit that pente has a serious problem. Thanks in advance for not trying to put any bone-headed words in my mouth in the future. Hermeneutics. It'll help. Beyond that, what is this "everyone" you speak of? I for one love this game and pretty much anyone that knows me here can vouch for that and the fact that there are many more here and at other sites that feel the same way. Much less did I admit that Pente has a serious problem. Discuss all you want as far as variants, etc. are concerned and I and most others welcome the topic, but don't go there when it comes to telling me what I think or said. That's some of that "Ray Charles is blind, Love is blind, God is Love, therefore Ray Charles is God" type logic at play man.

I dunno exactly what the point was in pointing out my percentage vs. reds Watsu, but suffice it to say that the work I've done under the redsky-iv ID is hardly representative of my body of work.....This is all good discussion and I dig the variants....particularly keryo and boat, but my bottom dollar's on the notion that classic pente isn't going to disappear in our lifetimes. How many coffehouses, bars, etc. do you see variants of Pente being played? I never see that, but Pente has a loyal cult following that in (again) my ever-so humble opine isn't tuning up for the dirtnap. Did anybody here read sjustice's piece on the history thread the other day? This game used to be a powerhouse in the gaming community, and it wasn't some lack of strategic depth or anything within the game itself that took it out of the limelight, but rather the introduction of another game in the '80's that overshadowed it. The game has HUGE addictive and cerebral appeal as is evidenced by many of the peeps in our midst that play it so much. Again, I for one dig variants and enjoy the thread here, but I think that the statistical approach presented so far is a bit misleading when you consider the variables left out of the equation. Many of the reds (relatively speaking) are no longer on this planet unfortunately (That means they can't be here to play anymore), as well as the glaringly obvious fact that, well heck, most people engage in pastimes like pente for a spell and simply move on with their lives......this can be said of chess, checkers, whatever you wanna compare it to....I don't think that people coming for years at a time and then going on can be construed to be an editorial of how flawed this game is. PENTE FUXIN' ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!

watsu

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 10:48 AM

I'm unaware of the many reds who are no longer on this planet, please enlighten me on that. I know Bodo is no longer with us, but he didn't make it onto the red list, since his last rating was below 1900. As I say, if others have passed on, I would like to know that.

The statistical comparison was just a way to illustrate that there is indeed a relatively sizeable statistical advantage to playing first (in comparison to chess, say) and generally speaking that that advantage is more likely to increase as players move towards the top- reflected in all of the active reds having a higher spread between P1 win %age and P2 win %age than your redsky account does. I can't say whether that applies to your more represntative Pente playing as well, since I don't know where that is...

And I think that if chess had just under a 3 1/2 year average game lifetime from start to end for Grandmasters playing the game it would be considered quite a big deal...

Yes, I did read Scott's post. Scott didn't mention in it why he hasn't played a game here in years, but as I recall he was one of the players who I got the impression at the time was retiring due to the P1 advantage.


Aaron Fortune, a better player and around the game for longer than I summed up my sentiments pretty well in this post. And yet, I'm still here. Why? Because I also love the game of Pente. And I'd love it even more played with a doubling cube.

http://www.pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=2&threadID=1580&messageID=4637#4637



I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
attwo

Posts: 14
Registered: Aug 5, 2008
From: Italy
Age: 13
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 11:47 AM

Sorry redsky, you misunderstood what I meant. The methaphor of the king means that P1 has a great advantage, and this indeed is a great lack of pente. This topic is another proposal to reduce that advantage, which is the only, great problem of this beautiful game. I just said that the solution may not be keep discussing when the most people ignores us. The solution of the P1 problem should be provide an alternate tournament rule, LEAVING INTACT THE SPRIT OF THE GAME.

redsky_iv

Posts: 107
Registered: Feb 17, 2008
From: Edge of Space
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 9:40 PM

Sorry Watsu.....not my place to get into the who's here and who's not since they're not people I knew....I shouldn't have brought it up or at least kept it in hypothetical terms. Hindsight's 20/20.
As far as chess grandmaster longevity vs. the pente equivelent, chess was invented and introduced to the world by Parker Bros. a few weeks before pente and I think that might have some bearing on the tradition and contribute to the longevity of the Grandmasters; that as well as the level of complexity. Apples and Oranges when you really get down to it methinks. Or maybe Apples and Appleseeds anyway.
Attwo, again, please make your own argument rather than try to twist my words to suit yours. I used the metaphor to describe the advantage, yes, but I did not say, imply, admit, construe, acknowledge, state, nor nod my head or wiggle my behind to the effect that Pente has some great lack, deficit, or problem. The advantage is there, yes, but I see it differently and appreciate the format to express that without having someone turn my words around.

PS-The doubling cube sounds like a LOT of fun to me, but perhaps a coding walk through the Texas Chainsaw Massacre for Dweebo?

zoeyk

Posts: 1,960
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 2, 2008, 1:49 AM

>redsky_iv
>chess was invented and introduced to the world by Parker Bros. a few weeks before pente


it was?????????


the current form of the game chess emerged in Southern Europe during the second half of the 15th century after evolving from similar, much older games of Indian and Persian origin.

The first official World Chess Champion, Wilhelm Steinitz, claimed his title in 1886

American Paul Morphy, an extraordinary chess prodigy, won against all important competitors, including Anderssen, during his short chess career between 1857 and 1863.


or perhaps i misunderstood what you meant.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
redsky_iv

Posts: 107
Registered: Feb 17, 2008
From: Edge of Space
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 2, 2008, 2:26 AM

LMFAO Z......gonna hafta start callin' you 'Turbo'....

zoeyk

Posts: 1,960
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 2, 2008, 2:32 AM

hehe

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 2, 2008, 2:47 AM

Going back to the game ninuki renju for a moment-

"I've read that Ninuki Renju had an organized association (Ninuki Renju
Sha) from 1923 to 1940."

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.abstract/browse_thread/thread/7a91a652063533f6/9488ddf4413705bc?lnk=raot

Having started playing a few games of ninuki I realize now more than I did before just how different the lines can be with the changes in rules. I'm looking at the possibility for potential lines affected by all three rule differences (imperfect fives, exactly five in a row and only 4-3 formations allowed) within a single game.

This particular variant proposal/thread has been interesting for me to consider, but I think there are a few two many cross currents going through it, so I'm going to bow out for now...

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
attwo

Posts: 14
Registered: Aug 5, 2008
From: Italy
Age: 13
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 2, 2008, 1:16 PM

You are going against the pure evidence. Every player can understand that pente cannot still be played as is. The solution is simple: provide to the standard pente game a) the swap, which is 100% fair; b) the G-pente rule, which is reasonably fair; c) apply the ninuki restrictions to P1.

watsu

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 3, 2008, 4:40 AM

Okay, I'm back, LOL. I was reading through some of the old Pente newsletters and ran across something which I found interesting. By 1984, tournaments seemed to be headed towards looking for methods to "break tied sets" (which I read as deal with the player 1 advantage), adopting the experimental use of the "Weaver Rule", "in which extra points are awarded the winner of a split two game match who wins his game the fastest". The page continues: "The idea is (to) create a tournament scoring system which can make finer distinctions in playing skill as well as add psychological elements to a match. Though the Weaver Rule only came into play in a few points during this tournament, the general consensus of the players was that it was quite interesting and would make an excellent tournament rule to use until such time as a more "solid" Pente tournament system can be developed out of one of the advanced rule proposals now under consideration (i.e. "Keryo-Pente" or the "Oriental" rules).
http://renju.se/rif/pente/s84pen05.gif

That was back in 1984. Since that time, the internet has come along, which has given us (at least) three great new ways to further our knowledge and study of the game- 1.) we can play on sites like this against multiple "tournament caliber" opponents from all over the world any day of the week; 2.) we can play 2 day (or more) per move games which allow the finest minds in Pente to study lines in greater depth than is possible in over the board play and 3.) we have a growing searchable game database which allows us to study and learn from our mistakes and to study the "master games" and variants thereof.

My conclusion- Pente, fun as it is to play, is broken at the top. Old Pente masters (Braunlich, Tesh, et al.) and new online ones (I'd guess most reds here, and a lot of yellows and blues as well) agree on that point. Lots of proposals have been made, the some of the greatest difficulties in getting any one of them accepted as the new rule are (to my mind)

1.) inertia- Pente is still a fun and challenging game to play for players at most skill levels
2.) lack of simplicity (or elegance, or what have you) in many alternative proposals. (swaps, ninuki rules, etc.)
3.) the subtlety and complexity of player 1's winning methods and lines in many cases
4.) the relative youth and (current) unpopularity of Pente in comparison to other games; have some sponsored tournaments with cash prizes like other games do and popularity could surge. However, it seems to me that it makes sense to look for elegant and simple (sorry, swaps I don't think you qualify) ways to improve the fairness of the game BEFORE any such tournaments might reemerge (miracles do happen), rather than (or as well as) after sponsored cash prize tournaments start happening again.



I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
attwo

Posts: 14
Registered: Aug 5, 2008
From: Italy
Age: 13
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 3, 2008, 9:08 AM

Swap may not be but it's the only solution. Tournament rules failed and a soultion must be find. Anyway I can't see what does the game matter with elegance.

watsu

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 3, 2008, 4:19 PM

Elegance isn't precisely the correct word re: swaps. No one actually wants to play the game that way- at least not those of us who play primarily for fun. You can propose it as a rule for tournaments and see what kind of draw you get, but I wouldn't personally enter. I'd enter a Keryo Pente tournament, I'd enter a random position duplicate Pente tournament (point scoring system needed), I'd enter a Weaver Rules tournament, I'd enter a Boat Pente or Poof Pente tournament, in awhile I might even enter a Ninuki Renju tournament- I'd play in any of those tournament types whatever time limits were placed on the game- down to about 4 minutes per player.

I wouldn't enter a D Pente tournament. To me, there is a skill set involved (finding a "fair position" to offer) which I'm not good at. It would take the enjoyment out of it. Call it the only solution if you wish, but it's not a solution I can see working well for attracting large crowds of players to come play in competitive tournaments. Maybe it's elegant, maybe it isn't- it's definitely the fairest close to Pente option but it doesn't work well for me. Judging by the number of games of it which people have played since it has been available, I'd say that's true for most Pente players as well. Pente doesn't have to be completely fair, it just needs to be FAIRER than it is now, IMO. Even swaps don't create an actual fair game; they give an advantage to the second player.

Random duplicated positions with a point scoring system
http://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=2&threadID=3820&tstart=0
is roughly equally fair in comparison with swaps IMO. Additional advantages include:
1.) no need to figure out an equal position; sides can be totally uneven and it doesn't matter
2.) greatly increased number of playable game positions over either swaps or regular Pente

This proposal is modelled after the way one of the most popular and sucessful tournament games in the world- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duplicate_bridge


ETA: not really wanting to bump this thread just for this update, I'll just put it here- we are up to 9 active reds now. Combined with all the great new things Dweebo has added or has in the works, we might just be looking at a renaissance. Too early to know for sure at the moment, of course...


Message was edited by: watsu at Sep 9, 2008 12:20 AM



I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
attwo

Posts: 14
Registered: Aug 5, 2008
From: Italy
Age: 13
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 4, 2008, 9:49 AM

Great one, watsu, again you found our problem.

p.s: For the random positions rule, there is a solution that could really work, simply, six games for every position are played, three as P1 and three as P2 for every player. The winner is obliviously who won the most games. As tie-break a set of two games with a different (random) position would be suitable.

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