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Topic: Ninuki Renju variant
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zoeyk

Posts: 1,960
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Aug 22, 2008, 8:11 PM

wow,...lol ok im done haha

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare

zemlyak

Posts: 8
Registered: Sep 25, 2005
From: Russia
Age: 32
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Aug 25, 2008, 10:52 AM

If you want to try out classic Ninuki-Renju (Ninuki),
please, challenge me at turn-based server:
http://www.gamerz.net/pbmserv/login.php

My userid: zemlyak

--Zioma

watsu

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Aug 26, 2008, 11:55 AM

Zemlyak's PBEM Ninuki record- 49-0. Out of my league, I do believe... any reds here up to the challenge?




I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zemlyak

Posts: 8
Registered: Sep 25, 2005
From: Russia
Age: 32
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Aug 26, 2008, 6:36 PM

> Zemlyak's PBEM Ninuki record- 49-0.

hehe... all level players are welcome.
I'm ready to play all games as Player 2.

attwo

Posts: 14
Registered: Aug 5, 2008
From: Italy
Age: 13
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Aug 27, 2008, 10:52 AM

I still think that a well swap-based variant is the ultimate solution, but i saw on the internet a game that could be intresting (sightly modified by me since it was thought for gomoku). The game has exactly the official pente rules, but:

1) 18x18 board instead of 19x19 (the board must be even, and the 18x18 is the most similar to the pente goban)

2) At the begining of the game four stones (two blacks, two whites) are placed: blacks in 10K and 9L, whites in 9K and 10L;

3) White begins;

4) White's first move may not be done nor in 8, 9, 10, 11 files, nor in the J, K, L, M columns.

5) Imperfect 5s win;

6) Captures as usual, 5 caputures win

7) I strongly recommend to reduce the board almost to 14x14 (I tried the game on a 10x10 board and I found it optimal, but the board is too small..., I suggest 12x12)

zemlyak

Posts: 8
Registered: Sep 25, 2005
From: Russia
Age: 32
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Aug 29, 2008, 7:53 PM

The problem is that Pente community is too conservative. Almost all strong players understand that rules should be changed. There are many interesting suggestions: swap, reducing board size to 13x13, Boat-Pente... But majority still play so called 'Open Pente'

attwo

Posts: 14
Registered: Aug 5, 2008
From: Italy
Age: 13
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Aug 31, 2008, 5:03 PM

Well, if everyone understand that rules should be changed, why noone tries seriously to change them?

watsu

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 4:28 AM

I'd say because no one is very satisfied with any of the proposals so far. We have several variants, almost all of which are at least a bit fairer than Pente with tournamanent rules, some of them (D Pente, G Pente) seem reasonably even games. Most people don't play them, though they've been available to play here for years. Come up with a variant which everyone not only thinks is fairer but also thinks works well as a game and you have a winner.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
redsky_iv

Posts: 107
Registered: Feb 17, 2008
From: Edge of Space
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 4:42 AM

Is there any such thing as a strategic game that's really 'fair'? I can't think of any. If it was always equal I think people would get bored with it anyway. It's the underdog scenario that keeps the excitement going; ironic that it is indeed frustrating to play on an unlevel playing field and lose to the superior position, but nonetheless its the prospect of coming back as the Cinderella underdog that that keeps a worthy opponent licking their chops. Crud.....that was 3 cents worth.....anyone got change?

watsu

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 5:46 AM

I mentioned earlier that personally fairer is my goal, not "precisely" fair. Best play in Checkers will always result in a draw. Pretty fair, I'd say. Theoretically although Chess has a first player advantage best play by both sides would likely result in a stalemate though certainly no one has proven that and it's doubtful that two humans will reach a draw every game level of perfect chess play any time soon.

Pente, on the other hand even with tournament rules is too unfair. Consequently, we have experts who consistently retire and lose interest in playing the game after reaching a certain level. Some experts' names we rarely see anymore? Sjustice, Dmitriking, Progambler, Student, Virag, Up2ng to name just a few. Sure, top chess players retire also, but what percentage of them over the course of say 6 years, and what do they list as primary factors for their retirement? In Pente over the past 6 years or so we've probably had more than half our red players go into retirement or near retirement. And I've heard a lot of them mention the player one advantage as a primary reason. That to me indicates a large problem.

Going on down the ratings list:
jozso rating 2135 games played 2,013 last game 3+ months
excel- 2052 1,749 2005
mattk 2029 72 2002
gnoza 1959 70 2007
spifster 1949 725 2007
spavacz 1940 169 Jan. '08
jayhawklov(new acct I think)1936 534 2005
samwise 1926 268 2005
stoneking 1922 201 3+ months
ilurath 1910 1304 4+ months
s3v3n 1906 271 5+ months
sparticus 1905 90 2007

That's JUST reds with at least 70 games...
we have just 6 currently active red players

Message was edited by: watsu at Aug 31, 2008 11:49 PM



I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
redsky_iv

Posts: 107
Registered: Feb 17, 2008
From: Edge of Space
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 6:05 AM

You hit the nail on the head watsu. Its the DEGREE of inbalance thats the issue. I think its been minimized effectively as you stated before by some of the variants, but alas, we always come back to the allure and inherent inbalance of the original game......its an ironic phenomenon when you dissect it to this minutiae.
Someone stated earlier that the experts all agreee that the game needs work to balance the P1 advantage; in my experience this isn't true, and while I've been disenchanted with the P1 problem in the past, its the beautiful sublimity of the game and the potential to knock the King (P1) off the mountain that that keeps me (and many others) coming back regardless

To address the missing players, keep in mind that while we can boast a list of over 22,000 players here, there are only 171 active at this time INCLUDING provisionals. Its a pretty small pond we navigate here.

My last 2 cents here is that another way of addressing the issue is to recognize only won sets vs. single games as a scoring option, but we all know that there are other threads devoted to that topic.

watsu

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 6:25 AM

I think the 22K figure is a bit misleading, personally. Anyone who is inactive without having played a total of 20 games can pretty much be left off our list for all practical purposes as someone who never got hooked on the site/game, I believe. So we have really around a pool of 2500 total non provisional players all time. That number is probably somewhat generous, considering duplicate accounts. If we were to include all provisional players, we'd have a pool of "reds" larger than the number of active non provisional players we currently have-
151 muzic 1900 2 0 0 2 100% 2 03/15/2002
152 jhendren 1900 8 8 0 16 50% -4

I think the following is a more accurate way to view the all time "pool" of players:


2473 monkyfart7 514 2 22 0 24 8.3% -13 06/28/2005
2474 _lilly_ 485 6 33 0 39 15.4% -3 03/08/2007
2475 zebidiah 444 0 67 0 67 0% -67

The site continues to get improve with more features and games available, so I don't think that's the issue...


Message was edited by: watsu at Sep 1, 2008 12:37 AM


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
redsky_iv

Posts: 107
Registered: Feb 17, 2008
From: Edge of Space
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Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 6:37 AM

Hmmm.... its 171 including provisional players at this time.....take the provisional out and we have 117.....not including inactive, I guess I'm at a loss as to what the 2,500 is about, but the point of penteland being a small piece of real estate stands from what I can see. As far as the 6 year thing, other than my vocation, parenthood, a few friends and a marriage, I can't really claim a whole lot in the way of endeavors that went beyond 6 yrs lol......well there is beer of course but I don't usually put that on my resume'.
Not tryin' to be critical here, just sayin' ya know.

karlw

Posts: 915
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 31
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 7:07 AM

this is an interesting discussion. I (and many people before me) have pondered these same issues. The point that the game is unbalanced and that the unbalance is part of what makes it fun ("knocking the king of the mountain) are equally valid, and constitutes one of the pillars of my love-hate relationship with pente. As one of the 6 remaining active red-rated players on this site, i think it's evident which emotion has won out in the long run, although you will notice my games per month has been dwindling from about 100 in my heyday to roughly a dozen now.

-K

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
watsu

Posts: 975
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Ninuki Renju variant
Posted: Sep 1, 2008, 7:21 AM

The 2500 I think better reflects the total all time pool than the 22,000 plus figure. A whole heck of a lot of those 22K accounts are one or two gamers. So, total all time pool would be considering only non provisional players and currently active provisionals- roughly 2500 players have ever been hooked on this site/game at some time during the past seven years (actually more like 8+ years). Of those 2500 players we have as you stated between one and two hundred actives (depending on how we count provisionals). 8 years x 12 months = 96. In other words, one-two hundred active players actually sounds pretty good when things are averaged out over 8 years.

Now, let's look at longevity at the top of the game-
1/6 of the active reds have been here since before January of 2002, but 2/3 have been on site for less than 3 years. Three of those four players are approaching 3 years on site within 6 the next months.

Then we have:
Jozso- inactive prior to third complete year on site
Virag- active for about 3 years
Excel- active ~5 years
Mattk- 5 months
Sjustice- ~6 years here and a looong time before that in the Pente world
Progambler- ~ 3 years
gnoza- 2 years
up2ng- 6 years
spifster- ~ 3 years
spavacz- ~ 1 year
samwise- ~ 3 years
stoneking under 3 years
Ilurath- ~8 years
s3v3n- ~4 1/2 years
sparticus- ~5 months

for an average longevity of under 3 1/2 years...

Based on those numbers, we may well see an active red or two retiring within the next year. Of course, a yellow or two will no doubt move up to red during that time frame. Probably to retire shortly thereafter.


One more comparison stat, just for redsky_iv:

redsky_iv as P1 win %age 64.6%
" as P2 " " 56.9% +7.7% advantage

as compared with active reds in no particular order:

richardiii as P1 89.1%
" P2 79.2% +9.9% advantage

nosovs P1 93.2%
" P2 74.2% +19% advantage

karlw 79.6%
63.8% +15.8% advantage

melanie 59.5%
48.1% +11.4% advantage

zoeyk 78.5%
71.1% +8.4% advantage

jayfrejole 63.9%
53.7% +10.2% advantage




I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
Replies: 46   Views: 54,042   Pages: 4   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 | Next ]
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