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Replies: 111   Views: 41,729   Pages: 8   Last Post: Sep 18, 2023, 11:05 PM by: zoeyk

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Replies: 111   Views: 41,729   Pages: 8   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 | Next ]
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 10:04 PM

Yeah, winning a tourney doesn't define GM. Every dog finds a bone at some point. Gets lucky or use what ever adage that sounds better.... But a GM shows consistency. Resilience over time. Continued perfection and form. Not just a one hit wonder single and now is a forever greatest legend in the hall of fame. Karl couldn't beat pentegon in tourney. So he's not grand master. Period.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 430
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 10:27 PM

rather than focusing on the 'who is and who isnt' perhaps we can all try to come to a consensus as to what the qualifications should be?
that was the original question.

bloodied but unbowed
watsu

Posts: 1,446
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 10:40 PM

@Vic - Unfortunately, at this late stage of Pente history with dwindling numbers of active "IMs" defining criteria for a future GM qualification is probably beyond us. If we had more active tournament participants at or above the ~2400 rating, it'd be easier. The last real GM qualifying tournamemt for TB Pente was (IMO) 3 years ago. There might never be another one in vanilla TB Pente, that one took a lot of effort to gather a strong field.
ETA: I have asked both Richiii and Pgon to weigh in


Message was edited by: watsu at Sep 4, 2023, 10:57 PM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
invictus

Posts: 430
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 11:06 PM

thank you, watsu!
i look fwd to hearing their definition/qualifications for grand master!
other than nosovs, i cant imagine anyone more qualified to weigh in.

bloodied but unbowed
karlw

Posts: 970
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 36
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 5, 2023, 12:19 AM

All joking aside, I will go on record stating my sincere opinion that zoeyk, in his prime, with ample time to prepare, in a turn-based tournament set, is just a hair more difficult to defeat than any version of me throughout history, and certainly worthy of the grand master rank. It is a historical anomaly that he didn't secure a major BK tourney title. I noted this fact with some dismay when I compiled the list, but I chose to continue for the sake of a cheap laugh.

My original list, plus zoey and maybe a few more borderline names, actually does constitute a good first pass at a list of pente's strongest turn-based players. As already mentioned, live play is a different discussion (with much less good data to pull from).

And @watsu, the carson75 tournament had a strong field, to be sure, but objectively well below the level of the brf/super pente tournaments.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
gaylen

Posts: 111
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: cottage grove, oregon
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 5, 2023, 6:34 AM

Someone would have to set up a prodigal for what defined a 'grand master' in pente that x amount of others in a committee agreed to.
What would be the time limit rules? Would it be similar to chess competitions?
Could there be various categories of pente games to be grand masters of?

invictus

Posts: 430
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 10, 2023, 10:18 PM

ask a simple question...lol
first let me thank everyone for their input!
here is what i have learned (pls correct me if i have misunderstood)...
1. there is no clear stated definition of pente grand master (seems there should be)
2. the title of pente grand master seems to be bestowed rather than acquired by accomplishing a set of requirements (kinda like the supreme court, lol).
3. everyone seems to agree that nosovs was/is pente master
and lancer, r3, brf, and pgon are grand masters because nosovs said so.i want to be clear here and say that i agree they all are pente grand masters.my point is that the only qualification presented is "nosovs said so".
4. as for the rest karl named, i have no basis but some seem to disagree.
5. zoeyk says karl isnt a grand master but karl says he is
and karl says zoeyk is a grand master but zoeyk says he isnt. figure that out.
6. conclusion: the only thing i can come to from all this is that a/the pente grand master is the one with the wallet that says "bad motherf***er" on it!


bloodied but unbowed
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 11, 2023, 12:15 AM

Pretty much.
And, if karl and I are GMs, then it must mean there are different GM levels. Because we are not at nosovs level. Although, we are not far from it. Perhaps nosovs set the bar a tad high. I dunno.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 11, 2023, 12:22 AM

Or maybe we simply rename nosovs to Great Grand Master. Then several people can more easily be called a GM.

As to secshun8s grand master avatar, ill assume that's just for a laugh. Im stronger and even I am reluctant to call my self a GM. Or maybe I'm being too humble about it. Or maybe I just romanticize GM level as something thats Unobtainable. Because most GMs get to a level, feel they hit a glass ceiling. And retire. And perhaps I dont want to think of my self as a GM because then I might stop sticking with pente. There's a little more to this, but another story for another time.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 430
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 11, 2023, 3:01 AM

that's easy, z!
allow me to help...
which wallet is yours?



Message was edited by: invictus at Sep 11, 2023, 3:01 AM


bloodied but unbowed
madmike

Posts: 136
Registered: May 27, 2014
From: Saltillo, Mexico
Age: 67
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 11, 2023, 3:09 PM

We are not playing chess, but a chess "Grandmaster" title of "Grandmaster" is awarded based on a rating number with a few other requirements. These requirements changed over the years.

The title is held for life unless revoked for various offences.

The title of the best players; well that discussion applies to events of all flavors and times.

Maybe Babe Ruth is better, but Hank Arron hit more homers, Dan Marino never won a championship, but many of his peers say he is the best quarterback. You get the jest.

zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 11, 2023, 6:48 PM

Nosovs (Alexander Nosovsky)did once state that "once a grand master always a grand master". But I think he was referring to skill level even after a hiatus. This was from a conversation about lancer/lanser (Viktor barykin) returning to participate in a tourney at bk. Viktor is a friend of nosovs in Russia. A GM in Renju. This was discussed between us over private messages at the beginning of a bk tourney that Lancer was in. Lancer used the post open as p1 vs any p2 move. To make a point.

I'll say again more clearly for everyone. A requirement to be a GM is you must have high level of understanding of Adzi. Also known as Aji. Adzi is Russian pronunciation. And Aji is Japanese way to say. Both originated in Go, then moved to Renju. And finally to pente.

On one hand you can simply get a high rating and be like im a GM now.
But this isn't truth. A player who has deep understanding of adzi will dominate a player who does not. A true GM will have certain understandings. Over simplifying with rating alone is delusions for the sake of simplicity.

Question is how do you know when a master has achieved this. Takes one to know one. I think this has been my point. Hope that helps.

I feel I have been getting close to cracking the code of adzi so to speak. In my golden years of pente this has become my primary fascination. I make discoveries about, which often lead me to new questions about it. And I generally feel alone in this with no one to talk to about it. Because a person must be on the same page to discuss it in a meaningful way. I do try to share thoughts about it to players. Some find it interesting. Some say nothing.

But I rarely hear responses that show me people understand exactly even the basics of it that I try to convey. Im hopeful a master will show more interest one day. Or perhaps I must make a indepth video some day about adzi. Then retire and leave it to future generations to either make use of, or to let the dusts of time cover it.
(Kind of hope ned and mum would show more interest)



Here Lancer, under alt name Viktor, invites me to a casual boat pente set, to prove his discovery of a major exploit in the wedge line. It was a revelation to me.





Here Lancer defeats nosovs P1. Side note, nosovs has said more than once, a GM must show "fighting spirit". You'll notice nosovs doesn't resign nor move to the corner. Blocks as much as he can then caps before death. Fighting spirit. Admittedly im still working on this...




Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 430
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 14, 2023, 12:01 AM

o, so...
just played pgon 2 sets live.
lost every game.
not surprising.
two points to this...
1. even a grand master can be humble enough to play one so lowly as myself.
2. it doesnt take a grand master to know a grand master when he plays one.

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 430
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 14, 2023, 12:27 AM

i am just saying that the definition of 'grand master" perhaps should include "teacher".
pgon accurately and honestly analyzed my faults (many) and i hope that will make me a better player.
ty for the games pgon (was fun!) and for the knowledge!
i hope current and future grand masters share that attitude.


bloodied but unbowed
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 14, 2023, 2:31 AM

I think I can tie many sets with pgon. But I still think he is stronger than I am. By how much I am unsure of.
I am not the most humble player. But I'm humble enough to not quickly call myself a grand master. Yes pgon is humble. I agree.
And I intend to pick his brain for some insights.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Replies: 111   Views: 41,729   Pages: 8   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 | Next ]
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