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Topic: Grand Master
Replies: 111   Views: 41,770   Pages: 8   Last Post: Sep 18, 2023, 11:05 PM by: zoeyk

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watsu

Posts: 1,446
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 2, 2023, 11:03 PM

You're far better qualified than I am to discuss Pente grandmaster history, zk. I was just posting about pente_gon to the thread because swap variants came up in the thread and there's an organization which considers pgon a live swap2 Pente grandmaster based on their criteria.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 2, 2023, 11:34 PM

Fantastic. We have pgon as our sites grand master then. I guess that brings the discussion to a close perhaps. Give him his purple color.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,446
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 3, 2023, 12:08 AM

Zoeyk hath spoken. Anyone who desireth the purple in a given game played on this site must henceforth thrice wrest the gold medal from the MSO organization in said game. So be it. We also have an MSO titled grandmaster here for another stone game as well.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 3, 2023, 8:24 PM

Cute watsu

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 430
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 4:13 AM

when i started this thread, i didnt even know there was a grand master.
now i know there are several.
so that's good.
perhaps i am being doltish here but i still dont have real clarification.
however, z tells me he is contacting nosovs in an attempt to gain that clarity.
would be great if he could weigh in here but will see.
he is a busy man w/ other priorites these days.

that being said, i liked what watsu suggested if i understood correctly.
seems to me that defeating 3 masters in a tourney would qualify.
but then that begs the question of what determines a master?
which seems another rabbit hole.

it is my hope that we can come together as a community to define the qualifications for nomination if not induction to grand master.

if that requires also defining 'master' then lets do that, too!
c'mon people! we play pente for fun!
surely we can solve this.

on a personal note, i have played every grand master except lancer (i never had the honor) and even won a couple.
not once did any of them ever mention their grand master honorific nor did they ever make me feel small.
i am honored to have played them.
ty!

bloodied but unbowed
mumix

Posts: 45
Registered: Jul 11, 2020
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 4:38 AM

To zoey, Perhaps I did not communicate clear enough. I do not condone the use of alts and completely understand the effect it can have on the community, as I have seen this in other communities. Yes, people could potentially abuse the provisional system to achieve a high ranking in a short period of time. I think that speaks to a flaw in the system itself. There is no reason for someone to be 2300 elo after a handful of wins, especially against weak opponents.

The point I was making, however, is that secshun8 did not simply play 5 games to get high elo, nor did he stop at the minimum games required to get onto the leaderboard. He has been active for about a year now, posting over 100 games played. This includes wins over other players on the leaderboard, including ned and myself (though i am one of the few that won a set against him... think i was 2 of his 3 losses, muahah). So I refuse to believe he has his ranking because of "abusing the provisional system". Keep in mind you only have 74 games played with an account created in 2007.

This is a dying game and community, and so I'd rather keep good friendly active players around, even if it means dealing with an alt. At least he told us who he was.. he didnt challenge top players on the site with 1600 elo brand new account to try and steal a lot of elo. Which reminds me, if you creating an alt means you would actually play the game instead of protecting your 2500+ account, i'd be happy about that. Though i wont be accepting any challenges from a new 1600 account :P

karlw

Posts: 970
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 36
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 5:58 AM

Since it seems like the only point of this thread is to create controversy (looking at you, vic), I will do my part and propose the following absurd, yet exceedingly simple criterion:

To be considered a pente Grand Master, you must place 1st in a "Super Pente" or "Brf's St. Patrick's Day" Tournament.

Below is the definitive, complete list of pente GMs:

dein
aleph_1
be_water
brf
karlw
lanser
likewowman2cool (aka happyjuggler0)
nosovs
novatis
richardiii
spavacz
yossarian (aka pente_gon)



Notice that zoeyk is conspicuously missing from this list

References:

https://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=31150&tri=359148
https://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=34926&tri=485976
https://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=38676&tri=625239
https://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=40924&tri=707627
https://brainking.com/en/Tournaments?trg=51822&tri=1038695

Edited to add dein, remove speculation about likewowman2cool

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
invictus

Posts: 430
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 6:35 AM

i posted this thread seeking clarity, not controversy, karl.
the irony being while you seem to disparage me for posting it, you have come the closest to giving an actual answer.
so thank you for that.
and as i stated previously i did not even know there were/is/are pente grand masters.
so thank you for posting it.
and congrats to you on grand master!

the two tournaments as a qualification i get.
the competition was top-level.
but 2011, 2012, and 2018?

is there another such tournament in the works?

bloodied but unbowed
watsu

Posts: 1,446
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 1:45 PM

@Karlw - nice list, and I don't disagree with anyone named on it. Unless Rollie bequeathed the likewowman2cool account to someone prior to his passing, that's not Rollie (no idea who it is). Also, I don't see Dein's name on your list. Perhaps the competition wasn't of sufficient quality in 2017?

However, I think we need to consider the possibility of live tournament GMs as well, hence my mention of the MSO swap2 Pente tournaments. So far, only pente_gon has won ANY gold medals in that competition (much less 3 gold medals). However, we (as I mentioned earlier) do have another MSO GM in a stone game in our midst who has recently taken an interest in swap2 Pente. So, it's not out of the question that we may eventually have another live Pente variant GM beside pgon. BK Pente seems pretty moribund to me, so how shall we establish criteria for future Pente (and variants) GMs?

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
watsu

Posts: 1,446
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 2:37 PM

@Vic - Here's a more recent result which I think Karl would agree qualifies one for Pente GM status - https://pente.org/gameServer/tournaments/statusRound.jsp?eid=1517&round=4

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 7:56 PM

I like how everyone is taking shots at me.
One of the BRF tourney it came down to me and BRF for final section. We faced off, I did beat him with my player 2. However in that set he beat me with his player 2 as well. I think by 3rd set I grew tired and kind of gave up trying hard. Since that time I have grown as player. And I will say, that I'm convinced that you are not a stronger player than me. I can even go into detail explaining the difference between us as players. We have different strengths and weaknesses, but over all I find us to be equals. To proclaim your self a GM and me just a simpleton master is laughable. As if your skill is so high above mine. But ok. So be it. You shall now be known as a Grand Master Karl. Perhaps one day I can achieve your level of understanding of the game.

No but really. I think we are both top tier masters. Right before hitting GM. I do not see either of us as a GM. The bar for that is high. In recent years I notice I see things better than you. Many times I have to show you solutions. In the last tourney we both tied at second place. You have an edge in live play due to the speed you calculate. But in turn based I have edge for how deep I study, and creatively, compared to you, due to your lack of patience, and ego in your initial thought processes. Also, I think I understand adzi better than you. Also the only way you could beat pentegon was by stealing my line I was saving to use. Shots fired, bang bang.

And really Dien a GM?! God rest that man's soul. But in the hey day, I was stronger than him I think. And you won a brf tourney? Without looking, I got to assume nosovs wasn't in that one. And how many BRF tourneys did you do? A lot. I think I did 2 or 3. And at that time I was a live player. With no turn based experience.
And spavacz is a GM? Didnt I sweep him in last tourney. You're fucking with me karl.
Your GM list is hog wash my man. For you to put your self, and Dien, and Spavacz in the same category as Nosovs is disrespectful in my opinion.

Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 4, 2023, 7:58 PM


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 4, 2023, 8:09 PM

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,446
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 8:17 PM

Personally, IMO this tournament qualifies Zoeyk for GM status if we consider Karl's list to be a valid GM list:

https://pente.org/gameServer/tournaments/statusRound.jsp?eid=1178&round=8

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 8:27 PM

By the way, 10 years ago in 2013, at the BK site, I used a alt for one BRF tourney. Brf wanted me to enter, but I was neck deep in a divorce custody case at that time. And could not focus on pente. So I entered as alt and played crappy games just so I could say I participated to him.
Wasn't against site policy there at the time, and I was young n dumb. My bad. But doesn't change my opinion about the chaos of alts here. Disrupting leader boards, and hidden identities in the forums.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 8:40 PM

Watsu, thank you. Im not ready tho to be titled as a GM. In my mind, to be a GM you must reach Nosovs level. For me thats where the bar is set. I agree I am better than most turn based masters. So perhaps have a title in between Master and GM. I would accept that. Im simply not ready to in my mind, my world, say that Dien and Spavacz are grand masters. Because then the title of GM means squat IMHO.
Don't let karl define GM. His ego is too much to quickly proclaim himself like that. His definitions are extremely biased and designed for him self, which would degrade the meaning it has held all these decades. Pentegon however, is up at nosovs level. Not karl. Sorry karl. I must be honest. Hey karl what ever happened to your gauntlet thread? I know a GM like you isn't backing down from his own challenge right?

In chess, below GM is international master. Then FIDE master. Then candidate master.

I think we could introduce IGM, as purple, and GM as Black. Black as in mastering player 2, and as in black belt.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 4, 2023, 8:51 PM


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 4, 2023, 8:59 PM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,446
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 4, 2023, 9:21 PM

@Zoeyk - agree with you, I don't think Karl's list is valid for top level. If there's an international master level below the rarified air of Grandmaster, then in my opinion both you and Karl would qualify for it. Whether I would or not depends. Probably not, except perhaps in a variant.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Replies: 111   Views: 41,770   Pages: 8   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 | Next ]
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