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Topic: Position ~VS~ Initiative
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watsu

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Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 22, 2008, 2:54 AM

This thread looks like about the best place to file this game that I've seen in the analysis section so far...





edited for spelling

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
dmitriking

Posts: 375
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Age: 40
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 22, 2008, 9:31 PM

This is a very interesting game. I haev a question, one that I might have asked already in a different post: What is "sente?" I had not seen this term until reading these forums a few weeks ago.

zoeyk

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Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 22, 2008, 11:33 PM

i believe me and karl answered that in another thread where you had asked already.


http://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=27&threadID=3979&start=15&tstart=0




=Sente= moves that result in taking and holding the initiative as
one player attacks, and the other defends in gote -
- or does not currently need to respond to moves made by his opponent -
- initiative - momentum - Offence -
- forcing control of board flow temporarily or permanently
sente: referring to a move, strategy, or position in which you retain the initiative.
Compare gote, which describes any move, strategy, or position in which you lose
or sacrifice the initiative, willingly or no.



Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 22, 2008, 11:42 PM

and the first time i think SENTE hit the forums was by karlw back in june of 2006

http://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=27&threadID=2925&start=15&tstart=30




Turns out that while distance from the keystone is the best way to classify openings, it is not the only way, so we must do a little rearranging based on certain traits that moves in a group have in common.

Group A: K9, L9, M9, N9

If white answers all four of these openings with N10 (and he should), the positions that follow are very similar (two identical pairs, actually), and lead to a very distinct level of play between two strong players. These openings are based on destroying white from the inside, trying to interfere with white's plans by building an open 3 early or blocking all his initiative.


Group B: M10, N10, M8, N8

These four openings might not look like they have much in common distancewise, but after black's 2nd and 3rd moves a common thread arises: In these games, unlike games in group A, black usually plays not to divert the keystone (in two of the openings it's not even possible,) but to build up his own momentum while at the same time defending white's. This is my favorite group right here.


Group C: O9, O8, N7, O7

These are the far openings, which are mostly based on the threat of building an open three which white must make a pair to block, then threatening that pair. I call this tactic "diversion," and it is a very important principle of openings, because white is unable to build momentum without the keystone. Now i must define momentum.




Okay let's define some terms!

Forcing move: A move which, if unanswered, leads to certain victory for the mover. Examples include: Extension to 4, Stretch 4, Split 4, Stretch 5, Split 5, Threat of 5th capture.

Initiative: The person who has control of the game has the initiative. White begins with the initiative because black must play defense if white knows how to build momentum. When a player has the initiative, it is in his best interest to keep the initiative by playing forcing moves and making trias. Plays by him are either SENTE, meaning they retain the initiative, or gote, meaning they give up the initiative.

There are two kinds of initiative, simple initiative and self-sustaining initiative. Simple initiative is exemplified by the open 3. Playing an open 3 gives you initiative, because although it's not a forcing move, the other player has to answer after he runs out of forcing moves otherwise he will lose in 2 moves (Open 4 -> victory). But after he blocks that open 3, you can extend or stretch, then...nothing. Simple initiative runs out.

Self-sustaining initiative, on the other hand, if played properly, never runs out, and 99% of the time leads to a win. It is such an important pente concept that I give it a new name:

Momentum: Momentum is probably the dominant concept of pente openings. It is a 3-stone shape that, although not giving the player any immediate initiative, creates so much momentum that, if not properly blocked by the other player, leads to certain victory.

Momentum is important because it is what forces black to play defense in the opening. If black ignores white, momentum will make him pay, because even though white has the 2nd move restriction, he can still build momentum in his first 3 moves. There are countless ways for white to build momentum, but the best way is to begin with either a 2J (K10 to N10), 3J (K10 to O10), BJ (K10 to N12), or Special Jump (SJ) (K10 to N11). Possible 3rd moves:

For the 2J: The L, the Hat(K10-N10-L12 shape).
For the 3J: The V.
For the BJ: The L, the Broken Wing.
For the SJ: The Capital T (K10-N11-N9 shape), the Lowercase T (K10-N11-M12 shape).

Now, considering white's potential to create momentum and black's ability to defend it, I would rank these 6 shapes as follows: L > Hat > Cap T > Wing > V > Low T. The 3J also has the ability to make the post 3, so it's still a good opening. The 2J can make a stretch 3 right away for immediate initiaitive, that along with the top 2 momentum shapes makes it the strongest 2nd move for white.

2J > BJ > 3J = SJ is my ranking for white's 2nd move.

This is something black needs to take into consideritation: The best openings for black are the ones that are strongest against the 2-point jump. This is why Group A isn't quite as strong as Group B and C, altough it is still a strong group of openings because black has thousands more options for defense in any position than the B and C openings.

I believe that of the 4 possible 2nd moves, one is better than the others for each group. These are my findings:

Group A -> 2-Point Jump.
Group B -> 3-Point or Special Jump.
Group C -> Broken Wing Jump.

This doesn't mean that for any group C opening, all BJ's are better than all 2J's 3J's and SJ's, just that it seems to me that the BJ is best suited for defending the Group C openings. I will next explain why I prefer these openings for these groups (it is rather complicated).

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
richardiii

Posts: 388
Registered: Dec 8, 2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Age: 67
Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 29, 2008, 2:14 AM

err, not to be too corrective on the matter, but i've been using the term 'sente' since when i joined this site. I bet karl picked up the term from me. I can't remember the 1st post i ever used it in though, so maybe karl was the 1st ever to use it in a post. I gotta say though that such a concept don't set well with me as i seem to have this addiction to being 1st in things that don't matter at all. I certainly hope i was the 1st true a$$ to grace the forums with a real and distinct odiferous presence.

As to this post in general, I too am a proponent of sente over position, but and it’s a big but, initiative without position or to be more distinct ‘continuance’ is just shooting blanks in a game where hard and fast dominance is an absolute necessity.

err, I guess i just reiterated zoey's discription there.

I once heard the following expression; “If Chess is a battle, Then Go is a war.” Then in my mind pente is the Sumo Wrestling of the board game world. In Sumo one must assault one’s opponent with speed and total efficiency of movement before contact, and then he must grapple ether by brute force from a superior position, or by feints, draws, and tricks from an inferior position in order to gain initiative. From the point of contact each opponent seeks one defining split second that shapes the instant in such a manner that one can gain complete control of your opponent’s movements there forward, forcing him to topple as quickly as possible.

If you want to watch one of the greatest masters of sumo watch Chiyonofuji Mitsugu. I was deeply fortunate to have lived in Japan during his reign as perhaps the greatest Yokozuna ever to grace the ring.


Message was edited by: richardiii at Oct 29, 2008 9:03 AM


zoeyk

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Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 29, 2008, 9:54 AM

ty for sharing the sumo thing rich,.. and if you posted sente in the forum first then site your sources, and ill correct my comment. i never said who used the word first, just mentioned when and where i think it first hit the pente.org forums. find a earlier post and i shall update the info.
thanks again

Zoeyk

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
richardiii

Posts: 388
Registered: Dec 8, 2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Age: 67
Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 29, 2008, 3:14 PM

nahh. It don't matter enough to me to look it up. All I want is intense and flamboyant groveling on your part by way of a terrified abased apology. I mean you don’t have to chop a finger off for me as a token of sincerity, but when you do please present it to me in a silk lined box.

zoeyk

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Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 29, 2008, 3:15 PM

lol

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sjustice

Posts: 72
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: pensacola
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Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Oct 31, 2008, 11:55 PM

I was the first to use "sente". Of course it was a typo and I had no clue.

zoeyk

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Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Nov 6, 2008, 2:13 PM

err just wondering....how does white force the win if black had gone H10 on the 10th?




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up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Nov 6, 2008, 10:10 PM

Hey zoeyk, this might be the best puzzle you've come up with so far!

Anyway, after looking at this for a LONG time (much longer than the given 20 minutes in a standard timed game), I've come to the conclusion that white CAN force a win in this situation although it's extremely complex. I had to look at a lot of scenarios before finding some that work. I'll list here my solution, along with several variations and leave it up to the rest of you to try and poke holes in them -- it's certainly possible that I've missed something black can do to foul this up. Here goes:

From what I've seen, the most promising variations for black will occur on the second listed move (move 12). I don't think anything good will come from varying move 11 and everything else after move 12 is more or less forced.

After black plays 10 ... H10:

H9*, H10
J13, E10* --> this is the key move for white and the most promising variations for black.
M10*, K12
J11, L9
etc.

12 ... E9, 12 ... L13, 12 ... M14, 12 ... G9 and 12 ... F8 all suffer the same fate.

Now for the tough ones:

H9*, H10
J13, K14
G9, J9
G11, E10*
E9, F10
F9, D9
G10, G12
D10*, J11*
G8, G7
J10, L12
F7 Pente

And another:

H9*, H10
J13, G11
J9, H8*
J9, G9
J7*, G9
F12*, H10
M10*, J11*
K12, K13
H14, L11
L12, L9
N9*

And one more:

H9*, H10
J13, J11*
M10*, K12
G9, J9
G11, L13
M14, F9*
G9, E10*
H12, F10
G10, G12
D10*, F10
L15, K14
K16, N13
M12, J15
M13, M11
N12*, M11
F11, F8
G8, G7
H6, E9
D8*

These last few lines are really nasty with dozens of traps. There may be some variations further down the line for black but generally they lead to faster wins for white. Again, if I missed something where black can ruin the line and win, post it here.

zoeyk

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Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Nov 7, 2008, 12:41 AM

lets play this out in the lobby unrated,...

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,468
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Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Nov 7, 2008, 4:46 AM

Looks pretty interesting, based on what I see in the db so far...

Game ID 34194139865107


Game ID 34194139865112


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Nov 7, 2008, 8:38 AM

Yes, zoeyk and I looked at a lot of possibilities today, many of which I had not considered before. We finally did find one possible wrinkle to the solution I posted. We'll have to look at it a bit more but I'll give an update if we figure that it does actually ruin the game for white.

zoeyk

Posts: 2,233
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Position ~VS~ Initiative
Posted: Dec 4, 2008, 10:19 AM

yep,..theres no way to beat karlw's white moves in this game,...and i Highly recomend that all players use those moves against me and or up2ng, should me or him pull this black opening on you in a rated set.

trust the masters,..thier whites are allways correct

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Replies: 30   Views: 149,063   Pages: 3   [ Previous | 1 2 3 | Next ]
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