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Topic: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Replies: 25   Views: 2,721   Pages: 2   Last Post: Jul 22, 2022, 10:40 PM by: watsu

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watsu

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Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 21, 2022, 1:11 AM

Sorry, I meant 11. M8, like I mentioned earlier. I copied the moves I was looking at down a bit too quickly or had the board oriented differently, apparently. I'll review and correct.


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 21, 2022, 1:12 AM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat

zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 21, 2022, 1:54 AM

L9

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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 21, 2022, 2:14 AM




Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 21, 2022, 12:20 PM

K9 (I haven't looked too far ahead on this, but M7, M10 and N10 look to be losing, I think).
ETA: I see now that 14. N9 wins easily against 14. ... O9 and resolves to the line I was looking at after 14. ... K9, so it looks like a P1 win to me from here. Any thoughts for improving P2's boat chances?
Also, 13. L9 would be a forbidden move in ninuki renju, so maybe those pesky forbidden formation rules from ninuki are needed in ultimate Pente also?

Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 21, 2022, 12:35 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 21, 2022, 12:53 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 21, 2022, 1:00 PM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 22, 2022, 12:31 AM

On move 11 p2 can try either m10 or m7.

And as to adding more rules, adding a lot more doesn't always mean it becomes a lot better. Complex is ok, but overly complex is not enjoyable "for me" to play. Not being able to have two 3s cross, would make the game uninteresting I think. Just my opinion.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 22, 2022, 12:55 AM

I'll take a look at those moves. I'm not a huge fan of the forbidden formations rules in renju and ninuki renju personally. Mostly, I'm curious whether or not having them in effect would shift any wedge lines from P1 advantage to P2 advantage in combination with either boat rules or boat rules + overlines don't win (essentially ninuki rules).

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 22, 2022, 1:32 AM

I'm unclear of the benefit of making a game where p2 has a clear advantage. I think the goal should be to make them closest to equal as possible.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 22, 2022, 12:57 PM

I'm not saying player 2 should have a clear advantage. Currently, player 1 appears to have a clear advantage on the wedge in Pente (FPA). In the other games (boat, ultimate, ninuki) player 2 may have an advantage on SOME lines of the wedge, though whether or not that advantage has been proven or not (and on which lines for which games) IDK. In ultimate and ninuki, on some wedge lines the second player might be able to force a draw (again IDK whether or which lines for either game). On this particular line, I had thought was ninuki SPA and ultimate SPA. However, your 10th makes me question SPA for ultimate. So, if forbidden formations for both sides changes this line from FPA to SPA, I think that's interesting, because it's a rule in ninuki which affects both players (at least in some versions of ninuki), it makes games more complex and in ninuki (and ultimate) draws are possible. If a draw appeared possible on this line in ultimate currently, I wouldn't see a need to add forbidden formations to the mix to achieve an advantage for one side or the other.


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 22, 2022, 1:02 PM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
watsu

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 22, 2022, 3:19 PM

Also, if P1 has the win here in boat and ultimate after 13. L9, then there are three possibilities to consider for ninuki.
1. L9 being a forbidden formation move here makes P1's winning line less clear and obvious, but P1 can still win
2. P1 can only achieve a draw as a best outcome if L9 is forbidden
3. P1 ends up losing due to L9 being forbidden
I think all of those possibilities are interesting, #1 because it makes the line more complicated #2 because it means this particular line is even and #3 because it's a line in which the result differs betweeen ultimate and ninuki.

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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 22, 2022, 9:40 PM

Well, but like I said, maybe p1 can just choose different 8th. Whats popular in pente db may not apply to boat with over lines. Perhaps what didnt work for p1 before now works. So im not quick to say p2 can force this line.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,245
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 22, 2022, 10:40 PM

Sure, I remember a boat Pente wedge line which pente_gon found which was winning for P1 in boat but would have lost had it been played in Pente. Each line and move would need evaluation for each variant.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
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