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Topic: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
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watsu

Posts: 1,245
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 16, 2022, 9:18 AM

This is somewhat a puzzle and somewhat a question which arose for me tonight while looking at an old ninuki renju game between dein and zemlyak on PBeM. The original game is at this archive dot org webpage archived link. I diverged from that game at move 15 to explore this line.
In the position I'm showing here, I think black wins, though I'm not positive. Any thoughts on ways white that white could put up a better fight on this line appreciated. Most likely the wedge is just a loss for P1 in ninuki and perhaps
boat, but I thought this was an interesting game.




edited to change the game link to an archive.org link, since a different link seems to appear on the site each time one scrolls through moves.


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 16, 2022, 2:09 PM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat


zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 7:15 PM

P1s 8th move is suspicious, and each move after increasingly so.

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watsu

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 7:35 PM

"P1s 8th move is suspicious, and each move after increasingly so."
Well, bear in mind a couple of things here;
1. P1's choices for 8th, 9th and 10th represent the lion's share of the Pente games in the db on this line (18/31 for the 10th move alone).
2. Boat hadn't yet been introduced here, and I think dein hadn't played that many ninuki games at the time this game occurred (2006), so he might have had better choices of moves for either boat or ninuki (or both) but didn't find them.
3. Once move 10 was chosen, overlines don't win in ninuki likely dooms P1's chances going forward.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 7:40 PM

Here's one try.
Move 11 p1 goes m8.
Assuming move 11 p2 goes m9 then;
Move 12 p1 goes o10.
Move 13 p1 goes o8.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Jul 20, 2022, 7:41 PM


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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 7:48 PM

Oh right the overline issue. Hmmm. Yeah I'm not used to that rule. Interesting

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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 7:53 PM

Altho there is still possibility that 11 m8 may work. Unsure.

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watsu

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 7:53 PM

I don't know ninuki very well at all, nor can I predict what vbarykin would do after 11. M8. But, in ninuki due to overlines not winning I would think 11. ... M9 unnecessary unless it's particularly beneficial for P2's offense.

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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 7:56 PM

In the past, Viktor went out of his way to come to this site to invite me to one game of boat. Where he showed me a p2 win in boat. Aside from the brf tourneys thats the only time I played with him. Perhaps I can reach out to him and have him come here to look with us.

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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 8:04 PM

Watsu, im unclear as to why on move 10 p1 can't simply play m9. Split 4. Looks promising

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watsu

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 8:26 PM

I don't know; I'm certainly open to all ideas on this.

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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 8:27 PM

I mean, put it on a board. Take a look.

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watsu

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 8:45 PM

I'm guessing you'd continue with 11. M8 and 12 likely to be a cap to O11?
ETA changed from J11 to O11


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 20, 2022, 10:29 PM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 9:42 PM

Yes

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 20, 2022, 10:28 PM

Well, let's look at 10. M9 L9 11. M8 H9 12. J11 O10 first, I guess.

ETA: I must have been looking at the board in a different orientation when I posted the moves previously.


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 21, 2022, 1:14 AM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning? Boat/ninuki renju question
Posted: Jul 21, 2022, 12:51 AM

Why would p1 play 11 L8?

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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