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Topic: Adzi discussion
Replies: 50   Views: 23,532   Pages: 4   Last Post: Nov 14, 2023, 3:26 PM by: owen_

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zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 27, 2023, 12:07 AM

I do not think adzi has anything to do with fastest win. I think its a concept and style, with rules, which is aimed at building tempo by putting stones in opponents shoes that they havnt time to remove. Ultimately, white avoids capturing at all costs, until left with no other choice. And often offers pair to opponent, to purchase building tempo.

Alternatively, in some cases the faster win is for white to agree into a non adzi style, of knife fight. Just, back and forth capturing until game ends at 5 caps to 4 caps.

As white I am trying to avoid capturing, and only capture when I look down the line and feel I am forced to do so to avoid either sure loss, or a nonsense prolonged messy struggle win.

This is my current theory, how I play, and realize I still havnt learned everything about adzi. But, I understand some basic rules of good adzi as white.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 27, 2023, 12:08 AM

Ahh, draw game vs white has sure win. Yes that could explain some differences.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,446
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Oct 27, 2023, 12:17 AM

Here's an old Pente puzzle, which turned out to have two wins in 7 moves for black. I wonder if the line without the capture seems more like Pente adzi (or would, if the capture didn't win equally fast and it was white playing for the win?)

K10,L8,F10,L9,H10,J10,H12,L7,L10

https://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=27&threadID=231976&tstart=75ChatGPT

I'm not sure how much better I understand adzi now, but it doe seem to have pretty different meanings between Go, renju and Pente.


Message was edited by: watsu at Oct 27, 2023, 2:12 AM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
owen_

Posts: 26
Registered: Dec 1, 2022
Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Nov 13, 2023, 11:10 AM

Hey, I'm coming with two things.
First, I'd like to try show my understanding of aji in renju on a good (IMO) example.
Here is the game: https://www.renju.net/tournament/1109/game/35887/
After 26 Black resigned, no defense, 3x3 in H12 is inevitable. Could Black play better? Well, there are no passive 15th or 17th moves that might give any hope. G10, I9, I11 - nothing helps. The only solution is aji!

Black can play 17-G6 (!) 18-H5 19-I7 and now after 18-J11 19-G8 20-G10 22-H10 23-F10 Black has a VCF threat: F8, F6, F4. It's a very annoying option so the best decision for White is to change their plan and defend 20-G5 instead of trying to win.

It was a tournament IRL, and some other players saw this game. This variant happened immediately on the next day (Black knew the idea of the aji but eventually lost): https://www.renju.net/tournament/1109/game/35915/
And a couple days later Black played correctly:
https://www.renju.net/tournament/1109/game/35963/
This game was a draw: Black was very short on time but had a solid advantage so they proposed draw and the proposal was accepted.

So. The idea for Black is to create this annoying stone in the boot. White can either attack, but the aji will prevent them from winning. Or white can use their stone to defend against Black's counterplay, throw away aji stone from their shoes but lose a precious tempo on that. Thus giving Black the initiative. Frankly, it's the best option here.

This variant is analyzed in my book "Caged Tiger". Alas, it is only available in paper.

Second. For a handful of dollars I can write a detailed analysis of my games being played here =) Explaining most of my moves and giving feedback for some crucial opponents' moves =)

Will do it for one game just for example.

watsu

Posts: 1,446
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Nov 14, 2023, 2:21 PM

I'm somewhat surprised, though perhaps I shouldn't be, at how different adzi in renju and adzi in Pente seem to be (in the sense of how they look on the board). I can't say I understand the renju adzi example all that well, but it looks very different. As far as the game analysis idea, I'm open to discussing number of games, rate per game and so on.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
owen_

Posts: 26
Registered: Dec 1, 2022
Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Nov 14, 2023, 3:26 PM

Well, it should be said, I'm not pretending that I'm telling you what aji is in renju. I'm just showing you my understanding of aji dependent on what I've read here in this topic, what I've read about aji in go and a couple of discussions with some players (my ex-students mostly) who play both go and renju, at least one game on a decent level.

So it's only my point of view, it may be wrong, of course =)

If this example is too complicated, I'll try to find smth easier, with shorter variants.

Anything about analysis - welcome to the PM =)

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