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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 18, 2023, 11:57 PM

I can not tell if you spoke to art fully, or too vague. Sorry in layman terms, what?

And I have not played Gamo yet. Is he good? Is he alt? Who is he. I might need to play him at some point.

P.s. I think I finally got it out of my system about the alt thing. I just needed to rant to get it off my chest. I suppose if the community doesn't care then why should I care.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 18, 2023, 11:59 PM


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watsu

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 12:04 AM

I've played gamo a fair number of games between here and brainking over the years. I would say, based just on my experience yes, very good and not an alt. Just my opinions, not known facts, though.
Back to game #3 - it's been ages since I looked at that line, but if memory serves black only wins by capturing, so not adzi I guess.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 12:17 AM

Fascinating. So a old timer master with original name that I did not play? How did he stay off my radar? Ok, ill need to come up with a quality line and challenge him to a set at some point.

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 12:22 AM

Not necessarily watsu. Because its black. Black is move behind. And perhaps black adzi looks different. Perhaps black adzi is short lived, and must move into capturing after its series of pair offerings. Unlike white who is a full move ahead, and can afford to build.

I think white adzi and black adzi have different rules perhaps. Just theory.
But generally speaking, its white who i see pulling of classic adzi type stuff.

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 12:25 AM

I think... each pair offered, is a fraction of a 1 full move value. Enough offerings, fractions, add up to a full move. Kind of thinking out loud here in my head. But I feel like there is a code to crack here.

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 12:35 AM




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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 12:39 AM

But, ok if discussing the black side of adzi. This recent game comes to mind. From move 16 to move 22 follows adzi rules like how white normally does it. But black had to capture prior to that to get into the position to do so. Im wondering what can be learned from this example. And what are the rule differences or nuances between white and black adzi?

Granted black capped on move 19. And had to remove those stones for cap issue reasons. Hmm
But, because the cap made a 4, I dont think tempo was lost.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 19, 2023, 12:40 AM


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 19, 2023, 12:43 AM


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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 1:00 AM

1, at beginning of the game, white is one full move ahead.

2, neither color can ever be exactly in a tie.

3, if there is faction moves, known as tempo fractions??? Then the fraction value per move must be a odd number? To prevent ties. And can't be a value of 5 either. And can't be a 1. Those add up to even. Can be a 3 or 7, but not both, would add up to tie.
So I am guessing fractional tempo values are measured in 3, 6, 9.

4, so when white captures early in the game, white loses a odd numbered fraction of the 1 move ahead advantage. Like weights being added to whites ankles or something.

5, however, white can capture early, and keep capturing 5 pairs and win without black being a move ahead. Therefore there must be more nuances or rules to captures equating to tempo. Or, exactly how is tempo related to the move ahead advantage?

6,In chess and other chess-like games, a tempo is a "turn" or single move. When a player achieves a desired result in one fewer move, the player is said to "gain a tempo"; conversely, when a player takes one more move than necessary, the player is said to "lose a tempo".


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 19, 2023, 1:13 AM


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 19, 2023, 1:38 AM


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secshun8

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 2:27 AM

Layman's terms... Many of us do not look far enough ahead. Resisting the temptation to capture stones is difficult. Often I will use pairs simply because I know that that player will chase them - even if they pose no real threat. Chasing leaves you defending but not attacking. The vast majority of my pente games historically have been played with no move restriction for P1. That is a very different game though I still play it purely for the challenge of trying to win as P2 when it's practically a guaranteed loss. Perhaps some bad habits of playing have carried over.

Is gamo good? In my opinion, he is the strongest active player here. Further, he is quite good at any variant I've played with him. He obviously understands adzi much better than I do. Each game with him is a lesson for me. Play a set with him and judge for yourself.

Glad we can put the alt issue aside. People do things often for reasons we can't understand but that doesn't make their reasons nefarious.

Literature and Philosophy instructor. Cop watcher. Treasure hunter. Writer. Constitutionalist.
zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 2:36 AM

Do you mean, or also mean, that when you are white, you tend to capture black pairs when perhaps you didn't need to? If so, then I understand. And I think offering material is ok. And building is ok. And capturing only when no way left to build is ok.
Black on the other hand. The one behind a turn. Must use smoke and mirrors. And toss stones in whites shoes by tempting capture trades. Until black is no longer a move behind. Gamo is strongest player on this site? Better than me and karl and pgon? That is impressive considering watsu says he started playing at BK in 2015. Now I really want to sweep this guy.

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secshun8

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 2:43 AM

Yes. Still making captures that don't need to be made - or at least not at the time I make them. It is a habit of viewing all pairs as a threat - even when they may not actually be a threat. What I mean by creating pairs is that I often do so knowing that a certain opponent will chase them. But that means knowing the way a certain person tends to play. Don't want to mention INVI any names CTUS or anything but.. Pairs can produce an anxiety.

Gamo is not the strongest player. I believe he is the strongest player who is currently actively playing and posting games. It looks like he and Karl are relatively split with Karl having a couple more wins. My record with him is atrocious for what it's worth - especially in keryo. Not sure if pgon or watsu have actually played sets with him.

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 3:01 AM

Pairs can produce an anxiety

Fascinating.

I want to know more about how you view captures and patterns and stuff. You are fairly high level master, so im curious how your mind is processing the game when you are white and are ahead, but have compulsion with pairs. You see them as threats even if not, and have a habit to take. This may be something to actively work on in your white games. But I'm unsure exactly how you are viewing patterns. I would need visual example of where this happens to you. And then ask in that particular position how you perceived certain things. Interesting

he and Karl are relatively split

Fascinating.
Beating Gamo is on the too list. May take me a few sets to figure him out. Ill need to probe him to reveal his reactions. I looked at some of his games. Pretty solid, and creative.

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secshun8

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 3:22 AM

Sounds like a great discussion and exploration. But probably not in the public forum I appreciate your methodical, scientific approach to the issue.

He's got a game posted in the waiting room if you're itching to play

Literature and Philosophy instructor. Cop watcher. Treasure hunter. Writer. Constitutionalist.
zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 3:38 AM

So far, I have 2 ideas in the M10 opening, and 1 in the Boston opening, that I may try on Gamo. Ill keep studying tho, before I challenge him. Like mumix said about me, I don't play often because I'm a sniper. I challenge when I discover possible weakness or error in someone's P1. But yeah, I plan to keep throwing pasta at the wall till something sticks. Hes my new mountain to climb and stick a flag pole on top of.

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zoeyk

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Re: Adzi discussion
Posted: Sep 19, 2023, 3:51 AM

Additionally, if I'm not around much after Dec 11th, its because I started college at UC Berkeley.

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