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Topic: Grand Master
Replies: 111   Views: 43,345   Pages: 8   Last Post: Sep 18, 2023, 11:05 PM by: zoeyk

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Replies: 111   Views: 43,345   Pages: 8   [ Previous | 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 | Next ]
zoeyk

Posts: 2,221
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 16, 2023, 6:54 PM

So, u used the opening before or after pgon asked you not to?

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,449
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 16, 2023, 7:05 PM

Asked me not to period? Or not here? Pente_gon used 3 of the four stones in the MSO tournament against other players (not me) in year one of the MSO. Pgon used a different 3 stones of this proposal against me in the next MSO when we faced each other. In between, he showed us his solution for the first one. I lost against him after that to the second proposal, which I didn't know who was winning. I never put it in the DB. Ned figured out who was winning after 4 stones without assistance from me (or thought he did, anyway). I'm still not sure who wins this proposal by Ned with best play. How far do you want to take this zk? Let's consult pgon about what I did, if you like... Also, the 3rd year of the MSO (this February) Pgon again used 3 of 4 of these stones in games against other players. Won all of the games he played with this proposal. For 2 1/2 years in 3 consecutive MSO tourneys. It's hardly a secret opening after Feb of this year, I'd say.


Message was edited by: watsu at Sep 16, 2023, 7:08 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at Sep 16, 2023, 7:11 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at Sep 16, 2023, 7:21 PM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
invictus

Posts: 432
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 16, 2023, 7:55 PM

.


Message was edited by: invictus at Sep 16, 2023, 9:53 PM


bloodied but unbowed
nedhall17

Posts: 44
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 57
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 16, 2023, 11:51 PM

O.M.F.G.

Zoey, you really need to stop. This is getting ridiculous. Here's how I know about that opening: Tom (watsu) played it against me in a swap-2 tournament over at BGA. He slaughtered me (our typical outcome tbh). The date was Nov. 1, 2022. Here's the link:

https://boardgamearena.com/archive/replay/221031-1000/?table=313785211&player=91614527&comments=91614527;

Since I was pretty darn sure that Tom had a way to win playing black on that opening, I thought about it and came up with what I *think* is a good second move by black. Which is what you saw in my game against secshun8. (Didn't work, though I'm pretty sure that was my fault 'cuz I didn't play it right.)

Finally, do you have any idea how completely *ridiculous* it looks to be treating things like swap-2 openings as if they are highly prized state secrets??

It's.
Just.
A.
Game.

And *much* more fun – not to mention inviting to new people – if we all treat it that way!

invictus

Posts: 432
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 1:56 AM

i retracted my sentiments earlier.
they were intemperate.
i will just say that they mirror ned's sentiments and that we are a pente community.
the idea of secret strategies and stolen moves escapes me.
and i do not think that is why people come to play here.
i don't know much, but i will gladly try to help any who ask
because that is the spirit of a community.


Message was edited by: invictus at Sep 17, 2023, 2:00 AM


bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 432
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 2:42 AM

for the record, elitists withholding knowledge from the masses is nothing new.
been around for centuries.

but i believe we can be better.
"lift up your brother so that he may in turn lift you."
so sayeth the vic.
lol

bloodied but unbowed
karlw

Posts: 970
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 36
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 4:10 AM

I discovered a guaranteed win for P2 in standard pente using 1...P10, but I'm taking it to the grave with me.

Some secrets are too dangerous to be told.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
mumix

Posts: 45
Registered: Jul 11, 2020
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 4:49 AM

May it go down in history that i first started playing pente in July 2020 on this site with this account (did not play on any other site or name) and conquered Grand Super Master Karlw in the 2020 tournament...... unfortunately I wholeheartedly believe i am definitely not a grand master. I just was super motivated to spend a ton of time studying every move, definitely would have lost if it were a live tourney. So, i think it is unclear if someone is a grandmaster if they only play multi-day turn based, because you could explore most/all paths by brute force. Chess games are timed for a reason...

Speaking of chess, people have been using other people's opening since the beginning of time.. but not the fairest analogy since chess is infinitely more complex than pente.

I was there when pentegon showed us his swap2 proposal he was going to use for the MSO tourney. He asked us not to use it before the tourney, the implication was that he didnt want the players in the tourney to be able to prepare for it. It was no longer a secret after he used the move in tourney. I dont think its fair for someone to copyright pente moves. Just like in any sport, we try to learn from and mimmic the pros.

mumix

Posts: 45
Registered: Jul 11, 2020
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 4:59 AM

And if it matters.... i do not recall a madhippo/secshun8 at the table with pente_gon discussing his swap2 proposal. I did not know madhippo at the time.

watsu

Posts: 1,449
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 5:49 AM

Let it be noted, for the record, that back in 2010 when I wanted to make a record of ALL of the D Pente openings arczi had played here at that time, the 1. K10 M12 2. L5 opening sequence of 12/02/2009 was considered too top secret even to appear in the database, despite having been played live here by arczi and utratos. Only 13 years later, on 12/02/2022, was this particular D Pente sequence considered cooled down enough that the site itself could even handle the publication of it. So, I had to content myself with only publishing SOME D Pente openings arczi has played, back on Apr 29, 2010, 9:09 PM. https://www.pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=27&threadID=4570&tstart=120
(this is a joke, of course)

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,221
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
Home page
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 6:15 AM

Pente_gon said "don't show anyone" im pretty sure was his words.
All I know is, if I'm ever working on a secret opening to be used by my self in a future tourney, ill be extremely selective of who I show. Probably only karl. Unless its designed to use on karl. Since now certain players have essentially declared that they dont see the need to honor someone's secret line they are saving. I guess how players see things is very different now compared to the old days.
In any event. Yeah that's cool watsu. All good. Sounds like you had it all worked out when using pgons stuff.
All I knew was, we were all there at table and pgon made a request. And I intended to honor his request to the grave unless his gave permission otherwise. And I had no knowledge of another site as I never been there. And all of a sudden I see someone from the table using it. But I guess no one can see anything from my perspective. So maybe I'm too old and out dated for this modern and progressive place.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,449
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 6:41 AM

Don't show anyone. I didn't show anyone. He used the first 3 moves of the opening in his next tournament (successfully) in the MSO. He had used those 3 moves in the MSO the year before. I used the first 3 moves, corner shifted on a 15x15 board 5 months after his second tournament use of those first 3 moves (on a different site, under a different name than I play with in the MSO). Which 3 moves, as I mentioned above were used here by arczi back in 2009 in D Pente. Yes, I used a 3 move swap opening about 13 years after its first use here. by arczi. You, as a site admin incorrectly publicly accused someone here in this thread (madhippo/sechshun8- did he tell you that was him?) who wasn't privy to his solution of using it here. Madhippo hasn't logged into this site since before Pente_gon's first use of the 3 stones. I explained, as best I could what actually happened. After Ned used the D position twice here, Pente_gon once again successfully used both sides of the first 3 possible stones for Ned's D opening in the MSO. 2 successful uses in tournaments a year apart- after he showed us his solution. His use of those first 3 moves were available for MSO participants to study, which one would expect, since he was undefeated in the MSO two years running. They still lost their games against those first three stones. Last Midhippo login - 8/24/2021
First use by Pente_gon (that I know of): 9/4/2021
https://www.vint.ee/en-gb/replay/12092146/
second tournament use by pente_gon (that I know of) 5/24/2022.
https://www.vint.ee/en-gb/replay/13685579/ Between those times he showed us his solution, because I had shown you the three stone position from the first tournament. Also on 5/24/2022, in the same tournament, Pente_gon played this, against me:
https://www.vint.ee/en-gb/replay/12972726/
Third year of use in an MSO tournament- Feb. 2023:
https://www.vint.ee/en-gb/replay/12972612/
Pente_gon also reused the form he used against me the year before in this tournament: https://www.vint.ee/en-gb/replay/13685664/
Message was edited by: watsu at Sep 17, 2023, 6:41 AM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
pente_gon

Posts: 53
Registered: Dec 26, 2017
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 10:30 AM

I remember our analyse on table but I don’t remember when it was exactly. Probably shortly before second MSO tournament. If I ask for keep secret it was short therm request. I used it already in three tournaments, anyone can analyse and use it.

By the way that type of openings are risky to use. Very unbalanced, and easy to learn key moves. I played it 8 times in 3 different tournaments (7 times as P1 and 1 as P2) and won all 8 games but I was really close to lose at least in game against metreveli:
https://www.vint.ee/en-gb/replay/13685579/

Second openings mentioned by Watsu was played twice by me. First in MSO2022 and second in MSO2023. I have won both games but had losing position in second. It seems my oponent was prepared for this and played proper 2nd and 3rd move. But fortunately for me made mistakes later.
https://www.vint.ee/en-gb/replay/13685664/

I think these openings are burned already and I am not going to use them in next MSO. I’m happy if someone decide to use it and I am open to analyse it.

pente_gon

Posts: 53
Registered: Dec 26, 2017
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 12:08 PM

Back to the main topic. I think that it is pointless to have „official grand masters” in such small community where many good players from past are inactive.

If someone decide to do it mainly live games (and mainly between top players) should be taken into consideration but I checked in database and in this year we have only 29 (!) live pente games between players over 1600.

pente_gon

Posts: 53
Registered: Dec 26, 2017
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 17, 2023, 10:41 PM

@Zoeyk you wrote: "Also, there was a tourney game where I was white, and he was black, and I won, but it showed me how deep and complex he was seeing. I chose a challenging white offense. He pushed me to my limits on that one. A side comment, in that game I did try to explain to him that the order of two captures I took mattered because if in wrong order he could win with extremely out side of the box move. But he could not see the move I eluded to. So that was interesting. I can bring that position up sometime and discuss it if he is interested to do so."

I am interested.

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