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Replies: 111   Views: 43,231   Pages: 8   Last Post: Sep 18, 2023, 11:05 PM by: zoeyk

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invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Grand Master
Posted: Aug 25, 2023, 4:12 AM

isnt it about time someone laid out the parameters for a Pente Grand Master?
i am no candidate but zoeyk and karlw would be obvious choices.
i am sure there are others here or on other sites who are worthy, but...
assuming we all agree on that, what then would be the parameters to reach godhood?
and special note to rainwolf , is there a way they could have a special designation?
seems to me recognition beyond the red square and a rating would be appropriate.

bloodied but unbowed

secshun8

Posts: 20
Registered: Oct 21, 2022
From: Texas & Michigan
Home page
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Aug 31, 2023, 10:36 PM

I will need to think more heavily about what you're saying before making suggestions. A few questions come to mind after skimming your post.

1. Is the rating system an objective measure of mastery? If so, choosing a Pente Grand Master will be straightforward and simple. 

2. What makes zoeyk and karlw obvious choices? I'm not arguing that they are not great choices, but what makes those two so obvious specifically?

3. I've often thought that having a color designation beyond red would be helpful in that it would act as another level or 'item' to attain in the game. I suggest purple due to its traditional designation of royalty. Perhaps this could be achieved at a ranking of  2300 or 2400.

4. It's been said before, but earning different colored stones would be fun. Or purchasing them to aid Rainwolf's monumental efforts in maintaining the site. 

5. What need do you see for a Grand Master? What role would it serve?

Literature and Philosophy instructor. Cop watcher. Treasure hunter. Writer. Constitutionalist.
zoeyk

Posts: 2,221
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 1, 2023, 3:07 AM

I wasn't originally planning to reply to this as I wasn't sure what to say. But I am Honored to be suggested. In the past nosovs was the top grand Master. His friend Lancer was also one. Below them are Richardiii, BRF, pente_gon. Im sure there are some others people might suggest, that I havnt played against. Since that time I have increased in my skill level and understanding of pente. But unsure how to define myself. If me and karl are suggested, either we both got way better since back then, or the bar has been set lower due to top GMs retiring, and now who ever is the best remaining is a GM. But, I dont like that notion. As it would mean if everyone but 2 green rookie players retired, then the top green player is a GM. Which would be silly. I want to say R3, he's not retired but he doesn't exactly play like he used to. Although perhaps he's been trying more lately? I havnt looked. Pentegon is another but I think he's retired? So, question is, do we even have a grand master now. And, are there varying levels of being a GM? I think the answer to the second question is yes. I am perhaps a low level GM, or maybe I'm just master. As to R3, nosovs once said, their only difference, was that nosovs has resilience, much more than R3. I guess means one tires, and the other one not, in long tourney or several sets in a row. So perhaps there are some nuances with GMs. GMs are usually self appointed, and if they are correct, then masters usually agree, as they can see a dramatic difference. I do not think anyone below master can determine a GM. It takes one to know one. You can feel when you have become one. And when you have, you can recognize another one when you see one.
Rank can not be how to know. Because alts can exploit the provisional system. Cubsfan in live pente is example. Secshun8 is another in turn base. No offense intended. But, if secshun8 climbs above nosovs rank, it does not convince me he is stronger than nosovs. Nosovs is the most God like player who has ever lived. And not because of his rank.
Just my 2 cents anyhow

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 1, 2023, 4:06 AM

ok so my question now i guess is what were the determining factors in naming nosovs, lancer, r3, brf, and pgon as grand masters?
do those conditions still exist?

How does one become a Grandmaster anyway? Before FIDE will give the Grandmaster title to a player, the player must have an Elo chess rating of at least 2500 at one time and three favorable results (called norms) in tournaments involving other Grandmasters, including some from countries other than the applicant's.Apr 12, 2022

this is from chess.com and while i understand it represents certain hurdles to applying it to the pente world at large, perhaps it could be a basis?

bloodied but unbowed
zoeyk

Posts: 2,221
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 1, 2023, 5:28 AM

The time for such a system was before pente was essentially solved. As to nosovs, he was president of the international Renju association. And a grand master there as well. Renju is like pente but a harder version. Therefore, his ranking there can be applied here. As to other grand masters, nosovs appointed the GM title to certain players. Lancer, R3, BRF.
Talk of having a ELO trial for pente at this point, is fairy tale talk. The strongest players are pretty much retired. The ones remaining do not take the game as seriously. And the game has mostly been solved. Game breaking novelty moves are now just stories we tell about the past.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
madmike

Posts: 137
Registered: May 27, 2014
From: Saltillo, Mexico
Age: 67
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 1, 2023, 5:45 AM

That next color ranking has been shot down several times. Still, it seems like an easy thing to do, and I don't see any harm in having a Royal Purple color for above a certain rating.

For those that deserve the purple or GM, maybe the game is solved. But not for us mere mortals.

Just over 900k games here at pente.org. Player one wins 52% of the games.

Sorry, that doesn't add much to a GM discussion.

nedhall17

Posts: 44
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 57
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 1, 2023, 2:01 PM

But swap2 has not been "solved", surely?

invictus

Posts: 431
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 1, 2023, 7:14 PM

hmmmm...
seems to me that the pente gaming world maintains an evolutionary balance.
what i mean by this is players will come and go.

there may be a select few players who have actually solved the game (those are the ones i would personally consider grand masters) but there is a constant influx of players who are not but perhaps aspire to be.

to those players, having a final goal (i.e. grand master) beyond red seems a logical progression.

i am agreeing w/ zoeyk that red is attainable by manipulating the scoring system.
and if red is one's goal then i say go for it!
i have great respect for red players.
but that being said, it doesnt define a grand master.

i readily accept that nosovs was/is the original grand master but it begs the question: what were the parameters he used to crown r3, brf, and lancer as grand masters?

and out of curiosity, z... you did not mention pgon in that list. did he achieve grand master through other means?
or did you just forget to include him?

as it stands, it seems z is saying that only a grand master can name a player a grand master.
that makes sense to me.
i am just trying to ascertain the parameters.

bloodied but unbowed
zoeyk

Posts: 2,221
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 2, 2023, 8:00 AM

Ned, yes, swap2 is a new field i suppose. But so are many variants. I was just speaking on pente. As to swap, being a grand master in that, will require great skills. Skills which few if any here have, yet. Perhaps in time someone will rise to that level.

Vic, parameters, you'll need to ask Alexander Nosovsky. He is on Facebook. But he has little interest in pente now. He's busy running a precious metals mining business. Ill assume he judged them by the quality, consistency, and cunningness of their moves.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,447
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 2, 2023, 2:16 PM

FWIW, pente_gon is considered a (swap2) Pente grandmaster by the mind sports olympics, due to having won 3 mso gold medals in the game. Having participated in two of the events myself, watched or analyzed many of the games in the one I didn't participate in, and being (possibly) a low level master of live swap2 Pente I feel like I have some ability to assess the accuracy of that qualification. To the degree I can assess pente_gon's grandmastry of live swap2 Pente, I concur that the tournament fields contained enough master players (mostly low level) to establish pente_gon as qualifying for being on the next level - i.e. indeed a live swap2 Pente grandmaster. But, don't take my word for it, test and evaluate him yourself if you believe you're a master of swap2 Pente.


Message was edited by: watsu at Sep 2, 2023, 2:20 PM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,221
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 2, 2023, 4:07 PM

Watsu, 1, thank you i was not aware what pgon did at another site. 2, im assuming he is retired. I think the topic was of players currently active. But I could be mistaken.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
mumix

Posts: 45
Registered: Jul 11, 2020
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 2, 2023, 4:27 PM

I take offense, zoey, Wish you would let it go, in regards to secshun8. Yea it's an alt, but he didnt just make a new account and play 10 games to establish high ELO and then take a picture of his accomplishment and stop playing. He has maintained 2400 for like 9 months and 100 games. No he may not be the best that ever lived but he deserves his ranking. Also, he's a nice guy!


Message was edited by: mumix at Sep 2, 2023, 4:28 PM


watsu

Posts: 1,447
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 2, 2023, 5:38 PM

@zoeyk - that was just a general fwiw to readers of the thread. Pente_gon's latest gold medal was in February of this year (the most recent online MSO tourney). If he is indeed retired now, I'm not aware of it.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
nedhall17

Posts: 44
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 57
Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 2, 2023, 8:16 PM

Just want to second what mumix said. And, um, can we maybe try to maintain a tone that recognizes that *it's just a game*?? I mean, there are very interesting questions about what it takes to play really well – for example, I find the distinction between stages of the game where definite lines of attack open up and stages where one just has to "build" fascinating, and wish I understood it better. But, still, it's just a game!! Honestly, who cares what "elite" designation someone gets??

zoeyk

Posts: 2,221
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Grand Master
Posted: Sep 2, 2023, 10:27 PM

Look, some one questioned if a grand master can be determined on rank alone. I say no because that admin is allowing members to violate site policy. Its literally written in the site policy. Its a exploit of the provisional. It was always a automatic deletion of account when caught by Dweebo. Rainwolf has not rewritten that policy.

Secshun8 did not delete his old accounts. He currently has multiple accounts.

I digress. So I gave 2 examples of alts that climbed to the top rapidly. It can not be what defines a grand master. Literally a low level master can do that exploit and get to top. Doesnt mean they play like nosovs or pgon or even near.

I used a valid example to answer question. If he doesn't like me to talk about his truth of what he does, then he should learn to not do that action I speak of. Im not apologizing. Sorry not sorry.

I dont care if he saves kittens from burning buildings for a living and volunteers at the local soup kitchen. Site policy is site policy. No special treatment. If rainwolf is going to allow that then the policy should be rewritten. And at that point I'll go make 5 alt accounts and sand bag you guys to prove my point of what chaos it will bring.

Watsu, ill dip out of the thread. Feel free to enlighten everyone what is a pente grand master in our history. I've lost interest to discuss this nonsense further.

Ned and mumix, feel as you wish. I still think you 2 are cool, and I'm wiling to answer questions about pente over private
Message should you choose. I feel uncontrollably strong about my opinion of this alt issue. That will never change. I will always view it as cheating, and a cancer to the integrity of this site. I realize others see it much differently, and I respect those views as well. We can't agree on everything.

For the record I have no issue with secshun8 as a person. I have seen him say nice things to me, and he has said some nasty stuff to me. So he can be either person depending on factors. I appreciate the nice side of him. But that nice side can not change my logical view.

Ned, I do not care what designation people get. Make a purple color, call it ultimate God mode grand master and give it to 20 people. I honestly don't care. I entered this discussion in a logical fashion attempting to answer questions people had as best I could. Took time out of my day to try and help.

As to what you found fascinating, I think you refer to karls opening I solved. Where I said use adzi. I learned adzi from nosovs. I wrote about it in vics thread this year. Adzi has some basic rules to follow, which lead you to best moves. Private message if you have further questions.

Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 2, 2023, 10:36 PM


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 2, 2023, 11:06 PM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Replies: 111   Views: 43,231   Pages: 8   [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 | Next ]
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