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invictus

Posts: 312
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 5:14 AM

i just learned that it is common for tb players to reference the database for calculated move percentages to play.
i am sorry but thats poor form in my opinion.
i want to play the player, not the database.

bloodied but unbowed


rainwolf

Posts: 722
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Singapore
Age: 40
Home page
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 5:28 AM

I think that's a valid way to learn and to level up your game. I've seen newcomers get stuck too many times, and I'm happy the database is a useful tool for them to learn new tricks, isn't that what the database is for?

Besides, it only helps you so much, because games fairly quickly diverge from database positions. Currently the database also only indexes positions based on the path followed to get there. If you get to the same position following a different path, it wouldn't come up in a search.

But if you really think it's cheating, then it helps to think about it that it helps you more than it helps them.

\_(?)_/
karlw

Posts: 953
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 7:54 AM

People who play turn-based games on this site almost always have multiple games going at once.

Subscribers should be allowed access to the db most of the time (it's a great tool for studying).

Thus, the only solution I can think of is that database usage is allowed for TB games but not for live games. If you want to play the player, not the db, you gotta corral them into a live game (which, in this day and age, ain't easy).

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
watsu

Posts: 1,265
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 5:07 PM

Karl and Rainwolf have made good points about DB access helping you more than it helps those who have more experience and higher TB ratings, the limitations of the still incomplete database and players having multiple TB games going simultaneously.
If one could only access the DB when one wasn't playing a TB game, most players would have no access to it. If restrictions were placed on searches in the DB based on the moves made in current games (which would probably be difficult, but theoretically possible) there would still be ways around this limitation through isometrical searches or reversing move order while searching.
Many players don't access the DB to look at a line midgame (or have said they don't, anyway). Play live or play those players if you don't want to be playing the DB. I personally do use it for openings, since it's not worth my time to memorize them. I think you'll find that many if not most of my TB games are still unique to the DB by the end of the game. If you want to play a DB player without playing the DB, I suggest you study their preferred lines before you begin a set against them, memorize how they'll likely play and find a good place early in the game to take it out of the DB. You'll not have "cheated" (by your lights) and they'll be unable to use the DB after your novel move. that's my 2 cents (1864 2 cent piece with inflation and numismatic value increasing the word count)

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
tin_can

Posts: 26
Registered: Jun 1, 2019
From: Richardson, TX
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 6:01 PM

While I agree whole heartedly that one should not have access to the database during a game, more often than not I wish I could play through ideas during some of my more complex game. (is that a feature request?)

If I want to play the database, I would just play the AI.

watsu

Posts: 1,265
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 6:06 PM

@ tin_can - the AI's openings are randomly selected from a flawed opening book, so if one wants to improve their game, playing against a top player who uses the database is definitely more challenging than playing the AI. The request has been made before for a board to play out lines on. Subscribers can use the database for that purpose without using the search function to find out what others may have done. Just saying...


Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 4, 2020, 6:08 PM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
madhippo

Posts: 16
Registered: Dec 18, 2019
From: Colorado
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 6:31 PM

We had a discussion similar to this a couple days ago. For most of us there the consensus was that playing live games is probably the 'true measure' of a player. Given enough time, ability, and willingness to scour the DB most players would play relatively equally especially once coupled with experience. I agree that the DB is a great tool for learning and certainly helps further the game by providing a valuable resource.

For myself, I'm not sure how much more TB pente games I care to play. I will perhaps stick with tourney and KoTH games for pente and leave it at that as I don't have any desire to spend hours in the DB every move and prefer playing the player (and quickly) rather than battling the DB.

More and more I find the lesser-played varieties more interesting and there are far less games in the DB for a player to rely on.

So if I decline your TB invite, don't get butt hurt. Let's play live or another version of pente which neither of us can search for very well.

#playlive #playtheplayer

watsu

Posts: 1,265
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 7:06 PM

Boat pente is a great example of a less DB able game which is more complex than regular Pente while still retaining nearly all of the features which make Pente such a cool game. I even recommend it over poof (which I co created in the 90s) as a game for players who are ready to move their games up to the next level. Tons of unexplored TB potential.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
invictus

Posts: 312
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 8:01 PM

i do believe the db is an incredibly useful and instructive tool... as long as both players agree upon the outset that the game is for learning and exploring lines. i have done that with willing players.
but was understood from the beginning.
i think i will stick to live games.


bloodied but unbowed
watsu

Posts: 1,265
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 8:09 PM

If it really bugs you, just play non subscribers in TB and you're covered

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
invictus

Posts: 312
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 8:19 PM

as an afterthought...
perhaps there could be a button where tb players agree or decline to block the db during a tb game?
that way everyone is on the same page.

bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 312
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 8:22 PM

i have no problem playing guests, watsu.
but lacks the sweet taste of victory that i get from taking your points.


bloodied but unbowed
invictus

Posts: 312
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 8:26 PM

and for the record... my first pente game came in a tube.
database not included.

bloodied but unbowed
watsu

Posts: 1,265
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 8:29 PM

I'm not talking about guests... I'm talking about well established players on the site such as valleyboy and homebrew (among many others) who don't have colored names. No color, no DB access (except occasionally when rw opens it up for the holidays or something). You can't have my points, killa. I'm retired from TB play now that draws lose points for the higher rated player.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
invictus

Posts: 312
Registered: Jan 23, 2009
From: north carolina
Age: 48
Re: naive
Posted: Apr 4, 2020, 8:52 PM

another thought...could this be why there seems a be a disproportionately high number of red players (with unusually high ratings)in tb as opposed to the relatively few red players (with much lower ratings)
in live pente?hmmmm....

bloodied but unbowed
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