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Topic: 1980-Tournament style
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adarnold

Posts: 11
Registered: Oct 7, 2017
From: Sanibel, FL
1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 22, 2019 2:17 AM

My Dad taught me to play and we and Mom played quite a bit. Back in the old days, they also played "Tournement" style as maybe others may remember. The game was played with 2 as usual and the rules on play were the same as TB Pente, however the difference was in the scoring. Usually games were played to 50 or higher. The scoring was (if I remember correctly) Pente was 5 pts, each 4-in a row left at the end was worth one or 2 and captures were worth one. At the end of the round, points were added up and tallied, then the 2nd game commenced in the same way. It was very competitive and those 4-in-a-rows were worth building. In any case, although I may be off on the particular points but I believe it would be a nice addition. Maybe not. In ny case, thanks for the great site and great players. I have had nothing but wonderful and pleasant games.
Respectfully submitted,
adarnold



watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 22, 2019 6:03 AM

I think that as long as there are some rules in place on points, such as the loser of a game can't tie or outscore the winner and perhaps a maximum total number of points one can get in a game that this is an interesting way to play, though I've never played it myself. If there aren't some limitations on points, then the game gets prolonged by meaningless (to the game outcome) extensions and pair captures by the loser and the winner has to be checked from doing the same by a resignation by the loser. Perhaps not big issues in real time games, but in turn based games the game could go on for several days after the outcome was a foregone conclusion unless there were a way to credit potential captures and extensions without actually needing to play them out.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
watsu

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Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 24, 2019 9:17 PM

I just got a red tube board at my local thrift store today and read the instructions for playing with points. Five points for a Pente, one point for each four uninterrupted stones in a line left on the board at the end of the game and one point per pair captured. Annoyingly (to me anyway) are that stretch fours aren't awarded points and that the player who has a win may decide to continue playing to rack up extra points, so I guess resigning wouldn't be an option under those rules.

On an unrelated note, it also suggests a variant which is basically ninuki renju without the Boat rule. Six in a row doesn't win and double threes aren't allowed except in a case where the other player would make a five.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
adarnold

Posts: 11
Registered: Oct 7, 2017
From: Sanibel, FL
Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 25, 2019 2:39 AM

Wow, I am really surprised of the several problems you perceive with this variation. As I Recall we never had a game go for days. With a point total being 50 or 100 or anything reasonable, there may be 2 or 3 games played to reach that small amount. However, you being one of the most senior players here, your comments are surely much more valuable. Thanks for taking the time to provide your thoughts.

watsu

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Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 25, 2019 2:54 AM

Days in days per move turn based games, not in live games

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 25, 2019 10:27 AM

I don't consider my opinions to be more valuable than those of others; I think it's enjoyable to discuss different possible ways to play the game and so I do that, even though I know most of them will probably not be added to the site. It doesn't mean that I know what I'm talking about, but sometimes I think I see upsides or downsides to making rules a certain way as far as their web playability in tournaments between strangers goes. In a friend/family over the board setting, the rules could be quite fun to play with, however there's an unstated rule - let's call it the good sport rule - which makes this variant work which in my opinion would need to be added in order to make it playable in online tournaments - neither player is allowed to resign the game. Otherwise, once one player makes a winning double three formation, the other player can simply pointlessly extend a couple of threes to fours and then resign the game and the winner could end up with fewer points than the loser. Obviously, this would ruin a fun friend/family game night, but on the internet things like this happen all too often. Again, just my two cents on how this might be able to be played in online tournaments.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
adarnold

Posts: 11
Registered: Oct 7, 2017
From: Sanibel, FL
Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 25, 2019 2:54 PM

Hi, let me thank you for taking the time and giving so much thought to the subject. You may not consider your opinion more valuable here than others, however your longevity on the site, your demonstrated Pente kill, and your knowledge of the many aspects of the game surely places your views extremely valuable. I mean that in a very positive manner. You made a very to-the-point comment; "...sometimes I think I see upsides or downsides to making rules a certain way as far as their web playability in tournaments between strangers goes." Absolutely true because you are looking to the aspect of defining rules, while I look at simple play. Your suggestion about the issue of resigning is one that I never even thought of, as it never came up when I played. However, if you and I were playing and I resigned, you should be awarded the WIN of 5 points, and whatever additional play points lay on the board. I see no way that my points would equal or surpass yours, even if I legally "padded" by extending my 3s. Sorry, but I really don't see a problem if one resigns and even keeps their on-board (plus padded points), as long as the other player gets the WIN points and their own on-board accrued points. Now, if WIN points were not provided, then I can see the possibility, but I still think common sense would apply. You did not mention what the Red Tube rules said about it. As far as Tournaments go, I would not even consider this little variation to be played, due to the silliness that surely would occur. Oh, I forgot to mention your comment; ...once one player makes a winning double three formation, the other player can simply pointlessly... I'm at a loss as to the meaning of "double-three" formation. Does it mean 6-in-row? If so, what does the 'rules' say? To me, 6-in-a-row would be considered a Pente, thereby stopping play. Sorry if I am not seeing the light here. In any case, I know we don't need to beat a dead horse on this. For those that play family/friendly games at home, maybe they might give it a try and just see what they can come up with and let us know. Lastly, thanks for your insight and the time to consider the variation.

watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 25, 2019 4:53 PM

The red tube rules made no mention either way regarding resigning, but did say something about a player in a winning position deliberately extending the game in order to have the opportunity to gain more points, which seems perhaps to imply that resignation wouldn't be considered good sportsmanship when playing for points. Consider the following game:




If I understand the rules correctly, in a point scoring game I would get 5 points for winning, 5 points for pair captures and 1 point for a four for 11 points as the board lies at the end of the game. However, in three moves, I could increase that total to 14 points. Should my opponent be allowed to resign the game at move 13 and have the score be 7-1 instead of 14-1? I'll see whether or not I can dig out a game where the winner would finish behind the loser in points; it's definitely possible to have happen, though.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
adarnold

Posts: 11
Registered: Oct 7, 2017
From: Sanibel, FL
Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 25, 2019 7:17 PM

OK. In your example, you just played J11 making the Open-4. I (white) resign before placing H11. You have not made a Pente. Your points at this time are 7 while mine is 1. That's it for the round. In the completed game shown, instead of my resignation, I continue to play to the sad final. You will only get 11 and I one. I see no way for you to accumulate more points after you Pente or win by captures as here. Even if you did get the 14-1, it is only 3 points in the whole game and I might be pretty good when I was ahead. Padding should present no problem. If I never Pente or win with captures, I never see those WIN 5 points, no matter how many closed 4s or additional captures because the round is over. In a real game, how many closed 4s usually get placed on the board? Maybe 3 or 4 each and that surely is no way for the loser to overcome the WIN points. I don't believe that you will find what you are looking for; the Loser making more points in a round than the Winner. Let's not forget that the game plays to 50 or 100 or so. Hopefully, each player wins a round once or twice. Now, lastly, if you do manage to find Loser over Winner, which I doubt; if it happens once in a hundred rounds, I would be totally surprised, but I could easily accept that and still love to play this version. The CPU keeping a running score would be easy, since Jamble does it with no problem or; if the youngsters haven't forgotten how to use a paper score sheet that would also work. In the beginning of the game specify total points, and go from there. Resigning should present no problem, as the opponent gets those WIN points no matter what the method. Again, thanks for taking time out to discuss this, even though it may never be added. As I said earlier, maybe interested others will try this in TB-Pente. Have a safe weekend.

watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 25, 2019 7:52 PM

Instead of 17. L10, I would play 17. F8 18. L9 and 19. G9 before making a final capture if this is a game for points and my opponent doesn't or can't resign. So, I'm ahead 14 - 1. If resignations are allowed, I resign the position at move 4 as P1 and my opponent is ahead 5-0 instead of 14-1. This is a substantial difference in the number of points P2 is able to earn.

There are game lines in which P1's standard way of play is to sacrifice 3-4 pairs in order to arrive at a win. Add in a couple of fours which P2 makes before P1 starts into the end run, and P2 has just tied the score.

Here's an example game in which the final score would be 6-5 -


Message was edited by: watsu at May 25, 2019 7:54 PM

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
adarnold

Posts: 11
Registered: Oct 7, 2017
From: Sanibel, FL
Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 25, 2019 10:06 PM

OK, Black could outscore white starting resigning at move 8, but if I was white and you resigned for the few points at this location in the game, I probably wouldn't play you again with that silliness. However, that aside, we have a real game here where the winner for this round is white with point total of 6 over your 5. Your self-assigned task was to find a game where the player won by Pente or captures, but was outscored by the non "winner". This game is two great players (bulls) who fought to the end! There are no "ifs Idas", or "I wouldas" in either hand. You still have homework. I'm back to the pool!

watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 25, 2019 10:43 PM

If I'd played L12 or F8 at the end instead of blocking one end of Karl's four (which is what I would do if this had been a Boat Pente game, but I'd have played one of the other moves for points)it would have been a 6-6 tie. This is simply the first example which popped into my head. I've just demonstrated with a "real" game scenario how the loser can tie the winner. Surely it doesn't take much imagination to see that the possibility exists for the loser to outscore the winner occasionally....

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
adarnold

Posts: 11
Registered: Oct 7, 2017
From: Sanibel, FL
Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 26, 2019 12:43 AM

If, and it's a big if, I was playing this game only to get that extra point, instead of finishing the Pente at at L7 or F12, I would capture at H11, breaking your open 4 (grabbing your tie point), let you get your open 4 back and I get my Pente at L7 or F12 with a final score of 7 to 6, walking away with the golden Pente board. Tuff luck! You still need to get the game whereas Loser beats Winner. Well, unless you want to get on with more important tasks and give me the win. The weather is great here on the island!

watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 26, 2019 4:38 AM

Concede defeat without even digging in? Never! With just a little digging on just this opening alone I was able to find:


which is a tied end game in which P1 needs to rewind the game back to move 18 in order to get an improved point score. Just scratching the surface, still.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: 1980-Tournament style
Posted: May 26, 2019 7:08 AM

Aaaand we have a winnah!




I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
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