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Topic: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Replies: 25   Views: 113,084   Pages: 2   Last Post: Nov 16, 2010, 11:54 AM by: zoeyk

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 2:14 AM

the following is a copy and pasted table conversation on adzi. niobium zoeyk up2ng.

zoeyk (14:18): can you help me to articulate adzi?
zoeyk (14:19): i understand it but i am very bad at articulating
zoeyk (14:19): and i heard you are good at this
niobium (14:19): I'm not sure what you mean by adzi
zoeyk (14:19): ok
niobium (14:19): 1. once you mentioned its an attack disregarding captures
zoeyk (14:19): hmm
niobium (14:20): 2. and it's a bit like initative
niobium (14:20): that's all I've read in the forum
zoeyk (14:20): i will post another game example soon
niobium (14:20): ok
zoeyk (14:20): nosovs vs chessik
niobium (14:21): btw. an AI doesn't follow an idea/thinking like adzii
zoeyk (14:21): there is a 3 stone sequence which is adzi
zoeyk (14:21): yes i thought so
niobium (14:21): you just have to include the components from adzi for each level of the tree
niobium (14:21): so among many threats and idea for an attack /defense you will also have the parts of adzi
niobium (14:22): I mean that at the second move,
niobium (14:22): the first move of the adzi will be split also in not adzi lines
zoeyk (14:22): adzi is a tempo of motion,.. not a single position
niobium (14:23): I think I understand it more or less, but you don't have to define it for an AI as a sequence
zoeyk (14:23): it is tempo with aditional concepts and limitations i think
zoeyk (14:24): a style
zoeyk (14:24): of tempo
niobium (14:24): the will come up with 10-30 lines, and 1-2 will be adzi sequencies
niobium (14:24): +AI
zoeyk (14:24): ok
niobium (14:24): but they will be adzis 'accidentally"
zoeyk (14:24): yes
niobium (14:24): like painting many pictures,
zoeyk (14:25): unless the AI's search is limited to make faster
niobium (14:25): and one of the will be an interesting one
zoeyk (14:25): ok
niobium (14:25): so you can identify the adzi backwards
zoeyk (14:25): hmm
zoeyk (14:25): interesting
niobium (14:26): like a beginner playing random moves,
zoeyk (14:26): ide like to know more on how to do adzi backwards
niobium (14:26): but accidentally he plays an adzi sequence
niobium (14:26): and an expert player sees it, but the beginner played it accidentally
niobium (14:26): the AI is like 100 beginners at the same time
zoeyk (14:26): ok, but i dont remember that happening before
zoeyk (14:27): but it is possible
niobium (14:27): have you posted that game?
zoeyk (14:27): nosovs vs chessik?
niobium (14:27): yes
zoeyk (14:27): not yet
niobium (14:27): ok
zoeyk (14:27): i will do it in a few minutes
niobium (14:27): is nosovs black?
zoeyk (14:27): it was a very interesting game for more than one reason
zoeyk (14:28): nosovs is white
zoeyk (14:28): and nosovs loses
niobium (14:28): is it a bk game?
zoeyk (14:28): chessik found exploit of masters common 5th
zoeyk (14:28): at bk
zoeyk (14:28): using a 3 stone tempo squence
niobium (14:28): ok, then I can't find it here, chessik name made me suspicios
niobium (14:29): he also plays c6 at bk
zoeyk (14:29): makes 2 pairs , they are offered, and becuase offered the 3 is able to be made and work,.. where with out the 2 pair offered the 3 before fails
niobium (14:30): I don't understand
zoeyk (14:30): it slows down white just enough to jocky into a working position that before failed
niobium (14:31): btw. an AI has no feeling for tempo or pressure
zoeyk (14:31): a tempo sequence,..... make 3 now = fail,... but,... non locally,.. offer pair 1, offer pair 2,... now make 3,.. now same failing 3 is not falling,.. now is sure win
niobium (14:32): sacrificing captures for maintaining initiative?
zoeyk (14:32): becuase whites tempo slowed down by 2 offered pairs,... just a millisecond enough to make the 3 work
niobium (14:33): ok
niobium (14:33): and what if white doesn't capture?
zoeyk (14:34): you will get it when i post,... but you will need to study both make 3 with and with out pairs to see difference
zoeyk (14:34): it is very not obvious
zoeyk (14:34): becuase results not emediate
niobium (14:34): let's put it on a game board
(14:34) * game started *
zoeyk (14:34): n10
zoeyk (14:35): n12
zoeyk (14:35): m12
niobium (14:35): sure win white
zoeyk (14:35): L12
niobium (14:35): although I don't like m12
zoeyk (14:35): ok
zoeyk (14:35): important to understand
zoeyk (14:35): 2 things
zoeyk (14:35): here
zoeyk (14:36): both N14 and O14 are the popular
zoeyk (14:36): for whites next
zoeyk (14:36): and but
zoeyk (14:36): N14 is loss
zoeyk (14:36): O14 is win
niobium (14:36): ok
zoeyk (14:37): chessiks showed us
zoeyk (14:37): so nosovs does N14
niobium (14:37): I like n14
zoeyk (14:37): extend
zoeyk (14:37): K12
niobium (14:38): I don't like that move
zoeyk (14:38): P13
zoeyk (14:38): here if black plays K11 black loses
zoeyk (14:38): the 3 doesnt work
zoeyk (14:38): 3 fails
niobium (14:38): ok
zoeyk (14:39): M14
zoeyk (14:39): but now the 3 works
zoeyk (14:39): 3 wins
zoeyk (14:39): subtle difference
zoeyk (14:39): this is adzi i think
zoeyk (14:39): it is not apparrent yet
zoeyk (14:39): they differences dont show for many many moves down
zoeyk (14:40): maybe i forgot to extend J8? cant remember if needed
zoeyk (14:40): we will see
niobium (14:40): ok
zoeyk (14:40): ahh
zoeyk (14:41): ok needed
zoeyk (14:41): back
niobium (14:41): back to where?
(14:41) * undo requested *
(14:41) * undo accepted *
(14:41) * undo requested *
(14:41) * undo accepted *
(14:41) * undo requested *
(14:41) * undo accepted *
(14:41) * undo requested *
(14:41) * undo accepted *
(14:41) * undo requested *
(14:41) * undo accepted *
(14:41) * undo requested *
(14:41) * undo accepted *

niobium (14:43): so the question is,

niobium (14:43): is an AI able to find something like this?

zoeyk (14:44): yes
niobium (14:44): at move 8 not to make the 3?
niobium (14:45): it depends how you define the threats to be examined
niobium (14:45): if you define an open two a threat, then the comp will examine the following lines at mobe 8
zoeyk (14:46): yes
niobium (14:46): g14, h13, k11, m9, n8, l9, m9, j9, o9,
zoeyk (14:46): ide like you to help me to articulate the definition
niobium (14:46): o11, p11, n13....
zoeyk (14:47): i understand things but im terrible at verbalizing understandings
niobium (14:47): that means the tree is split in about 15 lines
niobium (14:47): and one of the is adzi
niobium (14:47): but seeing the win at this point depends on the depth of the tree
zoeyk (14:47): do you agree black wins here?
niobium (14:48): I don't like 4. m12 other than that, I have to look at the position
zoeyk (14:48): it was the popular
niobium (14:48): I don't like k12 either
zoeyk (14:48): again was the poular
niobium (14:49): I like something like k14 better than k12
zoeyk (14:49): the win for black was not obvious
zoeyk (14:49): i understand there was better
zoeyk (14:50): i agree with you,.. but it shouldnt take away from the example and point here i think
niobium (14:50): you could also attack o12 before extending to a 4
niobium (14:50): ok
zoeyk (14:50): i think it is beautiful oportunity to express adzi
zoeyk (14:50): whether perfect play or no
niobium (14:51): it's a bit similar to chess
niobium (14:51): like when you have to get rid of a piece first, before you can play something
zoeyk (14:51): yes thank you

zoeyk (14:51): was exactly what i said when i saw it

zoeyk (14:51): chessik used chess tempo tactic to solve

zoeyk (14:52): offer material to improve tempo non locally
zoeyk (14:52): yes?
niobium (14:52): i wouldn' call it a tempo
zoeyk (14:52): again, yes
zoeyk (14:52): if just tempo than not adzi
niobium (14:53): it's a distraction
niobium (14:53): or a double attack
zoeyk (14:53): its slows down the defuse function to stop the 3 threat
zoeyk (14:53): like putting weights on the opponents ankles
niobium (14:54): its a bit similar, when you attack at varios parts in gomoku,
niobium (14:54): and the two attacks are not enough separately,
niobium (14:54): but in case you can connect them, it's enough
zoeyk (14:54): yes ok
zoeyk (14:55): we can publish this game to put in thread for example?
niobium (14:55): sure
zoeyk (14:56): what is best place to end it to have it be clear?
niobium (14:56): then I have to fin a win now but will be difficult with so many possible captures
niobium (14:56): well, you could post it twice with different 8th moves
zoeyk (14:56): so stop at 8th?

niobium (14:59): l13 seems ok, but he would have 5 captures

zoeyk (15:02): what should we do?
zoeyk (15:03): to make clear example for the thread?
niobium (15:03): it's not really clear
niobium (15:04): for me it's not obvious, that it was blacks plan to slow down the game
zoeyk (15:04): so how many different ways to play the adzi sequence to make clear then?
zoeyk (15:04): no point in beautiful example if not made clear
niobium (15:05): for me it seems white made himself an other threat, while not defending an other
niobium (15:05): so for me it's not an adzi for black, but an owngoal for white
zoeyk (15:05): owngoal?

niobium (15:06): yes, it's like he forced black to make an other threat
zoeyk (15:06): do you think whites 6th can win?

zoeyk (15:07): O14 6th was sure win for white,... i say N14 is sure loss for whites 6th
niobium (15:07): ok
zoeyk (15:08): so after 6th white had no good options i think

niobium (15:08): which game uses the word adzi?
zoeyk (15:09): go,... but spelled AJI
zoeyk (15:09): japanese
zoeyk (15:09): in russia spelled adzi
zoeyk (15:09): GO is AJI
zoeyk (15:09): also found in renju books
niobium (15:10): one sec.
zoeyk (15:10): as adzi
(15:10) * jaqueline_ has entered the table *
niobium (15:10): ok, I found it, but it's still not clear
zoeyk (15:10): Go Renju Ninuki-Renju maybe Gomoku actually aswell

niobium (15:11): it's a dead stone with latent potential
zoeyk (15:11): in GO,... but translated into pente can be different
niobium (15:12): ok, I just try to understand what they mean
zoeyk (15:12): nosovs is the one to translate it into pente,.. he slightly changes the usage becuase pente is different
niobium (15:12): how it is different from a simple change in moves order?
zoeyk (15:12): these are good questions,.... need to ask nosovs maybe
zoeyk (15:13): you can post with questions and comments,.. will be helpful
niobium (15:13): I mean, at move 8
niobium (15:13): can you identify n13 as adzi,
niobium (15:13): or just later, when you see the win
zoeyk (15:13): nosovs was clear that,... adzi is not a move
zoeyk (15:14): but can be found in a sequence
zoeyk (15:14): and is a concept
zoeyk (15:14): used in different ways
niobium (15:14): ok, but for me it seems very natural, nothing special
zoeyk (15:14): ok
zoeyk (15:14): hmm
niobium (15:15): you should ask chessik also
zoeyk (15:16): well
zoeyk (15:16): chessik is chess player
zoeyk (15:16): adzi is nosovs concept
zoeyk (15:16): so better to ask nosovs
niobium (15:16): it's a concept used by nosovs also
niobium (15:16): not nosovs' concept
zoeyk (15:17): in GO not his,.. but in pente yes,....
niobium (15:17): ok
niobium (15:17): he was the first to give it a name
zoeyk (15:17): becuase he brought to pente,.. and translated its usage to fit the game
zoeyk (15:18): he didnt invent the name adzi
zoeyk (15:18): AJI from japan,.. and ADZI spelling maybe another russian did it
niobium (15:18): there should be an english word for it
zoeyk (15:18): yes
zoeyk (15:19): nosovs says ADZI is the russian spelling that makes the identical sound as how japan pronunciates it,... the sound
niobium (15:19): ok
zoeyk (15:19): so,.. if i knew how it sounded,... i could do a english spelling,... but i have no clue how it sounds
zoeyk (15:20): this is the problem
niobium (15:20): people would still not understand what do you mean by it
zoeyk (15:20): true
zoeyk (15:21): the bigger and more important problem
zoeyk (15:21): so can you help on this adzi project?
niobium (15:21): how?
zoeyk (15:21): well if you dont know how then i guess it means you can not
niobium (15:22): richardiii was tru abour private games
zoeyk (15:22): i needed you to get it,.. and explain better than me
niobium (15:22): I will think about it, chess should have terms for similar situations
zoeyk (15:23): before we name it,.. it must be proporly defined both in visual example but more importantly in words
niobium (15:24): ok
zoeyk (15:24): any ways,.. we put this game as possible candidate,.. and if not adzi,.. then we can define the difference
niobium (15:24): it is difficult to transfer a term from one to an other
zoeyk (15:24): yes
niobium (15:24): +game
zoeyk (15:24): you lose some meaning,. and gain other meaning
zoeyk (15:24): in the middle you have only portion of similarity
niobium (15:25): in pente you have no dead stones like in go
zoeyk (15:25): ok
zoeyk (15:25): this shows loss of meaning
niobium (15:26): is this the only game where you found this technique?
zoeyk (15:26): no
zoeyk (15:26): adzi shown for gomoku and ninuki-renju in nosovs book
niobium (15:26): then you should put as many games in the forum as possible
niobium (15:27): what kind of book?
zoeyk (15:27): umm
zoeyk (15:27): one sec
zoeyk (15:27): let me find the link
niobium (15:27): ok
zoeyk (15:27): the book is online

niobium (15:27): renju is more similar to pente

zoeyk (15:31): there is another for gomoku i need to locate
niobium (15:31): ok
zoeyk (15:31): but here is for pente/ninuki renju
zoeyk (15:31): http://nosovsky.narod.ru/Pente.zip

niobium (15:34): I found his definition for adzi

zoeyk (15:34): ok
zoeyk (15:34): and what u think?

zoeyk (15:34): i think he was too vague in his meaning
niobium (15:35): not caring about the opponent making a capture, but mainttain the attack
niobium (15:36): in that case, in our game k11 is the adzi move
niobium (15:36): leaving n13 o12 undefended
niobium (15:37): somthing like this:
niobium (15:38): in a chessgame your queen could be captured, but you keep attacking with checks
zoeyk (15:38): ok
zoeyk (15:38): so this is adzi?
zoeyk (15:39): offering material advantage to maintain winning tempo?
niobium (15:39): I think the key is, there has to be possible captures
zoeyk (15:39): yes
zoeyk (15:39): indeed
niobium (15:40): adn no extending or capturing
zoeyk (15:40): pairs are implied by nature here
niobium (15:40): but attacking elsewhere
zoeyk (15:40): but the offered material needs to be a crusial role in allowing the attack else where to work
zoeyk (15:40): yes?
niobium (15:41): yes
zoeyk (15:41): ok
niobium (15:41): wedge would be a good example
zoeyk (15:42): yes ok
zoeyk (15:42): but not best example
niobium (15:42): or nosovs' n8 trick
zoeyk (15:42): but yes
niobium (15:42): leaving many pairs undefended
zoeyk (15:43): N8, N11,P10,K11 ext ?
niobium (15:43): yes
zoeyk (15:44): yes
zoeyk (15:44): but this is more local,.. the attack is not else where
niobium (15:44): when you have your definition ready, you should ask nosovs again
niobium (15:45): I think the key here is m14
niobium (15:45): that is a waisted move
zoeyk (15:45): there was no ther good move
niobium (15:45): at that point white loses the initiative
zoeyk (15:46): white didnt have any other good move tho
niobium (15:46): yes, I mean that is the turning point
zoeyk (15:46): any move was same
zoeyk (15:46): no
zoeyk (15:46): 6th was turning point
zoeyk (15:46): was the error
zoeyk (15:46): any 9th move for white was terrible
niobium (15:47): from m14 white is on the defensive
zoeyk (15:47): if not M14 then what great move? i see nothing
zoeyk (15:47): no alternate choice to improve 9th
zoeyk (15:47): just same bad positions
niobium (15:48): its difficult to define something from the angle of both players

(15:48) * up2ng has entered the table *
zoeyk (15:48): hi up2
up2ng (15:48): hey how's it going?
zoeyk (15:49): good
up2ng (15:49): some actual game playing happening here? wow!
zoeyk (15:49): we are having adzi discussion
up2ng (15:49): ah
zoeyk (15:49): this game was attempted example to use
niobium (15:49): but it's a bit too complicated
zoeyk (15:50): whites 6th was error,...blacks 6th 8th 10th was adzi sequence to exploit
zoeyk (15:50): 2 pairs needed to be offered for the K11 making 3 to work
niobium (15:50): I have a position for adzi in my mind
zoeyk (15:50): ok
niobium (15:51): what should we do with this game?
zoeyk (15:51): publish game here is good i think
up2ng (15:52): you sure black couldn't do anything?
zoeyk (15:52): they can see cap troubles with L13 now
zoeyk (15:52): dean
zoeyk (15:52): its black win on 6th
zoeyk (15:52): whites 6th is white loss

zoeyk (15:53): this is chessik's P2 that defeated nosovs white turn based
zoeyk (15:53): ok nio
zoeyk (15:53): what is your idea?
zoeyk (15:54): give me losing color
zoeyk (15:54): ill take turn to resign
up2ng (15:54): so what is it about adzi that y'all are trying to figure out?
niobium (15:54): no need for that, we can cancel it
zoeyk (15:54): we need to define it

(15:54) * game started *
zoeyk (15:54): adzi very hard to define here
niobium (15:54): I think it's something quite simple,
zoeyk (15:55): probably
niobium (15:55): n10
zoeyk (15:55): but other similar things not adzi but seem like make it confusing
up2ng (15:55): did you read my post? it looks to me like nosovs already defined it and it's not really that advanced...
zoeyk (15:55): ok
niobium (15:55): l12
zoeyk (15:55): i didnt read yet
niobium (15:56): m10
niobium (15:56): l10
up2ng (15:56): probably just a case of confusing terminology, people are thinking of different things -- seems to be a lot of that around here lol
niobium (15:56): h11
zoeyk (15:56): yes
niobium (15:56): for me this is also adzi
zoeyk (15:56): is why its good to talk about
zoeyk (15:57): yes but,..... black loses here
up2ng (15:57): which part are you thinking is adzi?
niobium (15:57): leaving the two undefended
up2ng (15:58): ah, ok, to me that has nothing to do with adzi lol oh well, hopefully nosovs will chime in again and fill us in
zoeyk (15:58): up2ng,.. you didnt read other nosovs definition in his book,.. i didnt post it yet
up2ng (15:58): i'm not sure why we need these fancy terms for all this stuff hehe

zoeyk (15:58): nio
zoeyk (15:58): adzi should be a winning combo?

zoeyk (15:59): or just similar idea?
up2ng (15:59): i'll see if i can dial something up real quick on a board...
niobium (15:59): let me undo
zoeyk (15:59): becuase black wins this
zoeyk (15:59): no
zoeyk (15:59): sorry
zoeyk (15:59): black Loses this
zoeyk (15:59): this is white win
niobium (15:59): yes
niobium (15:59): after o9 it's adzi for white with h12
zoeyk (16:00): so although i agree it really does match adzi visually,..... does it require to be a win to count as adzi?
niobium (16:00): I think adzi is a very simple something

niobium (16:00): I mean my o9 instead of o12
niobium (16:01): it's just a concept, not a winning sequence
zoeyk (16:01): ahh
zoeyk (16:01): ok this is important to point out then
zoeyk (16:01): does not imply winning tempo
zoeyk (16:01): interesting
up2ng (16:02): can i jump in with someone and show you an example of what i think adzi is? i have one ready

zoeyk (16:02): in GO they speak of good AJI and also bad AJI,......i found this important to review nio
up2ng (16:02): ok

(16:02) * game started *
niobium (16:02): ok
up2ng (16:03): k13
up2ng (16:03): m11
up2ng (16:03): m13 is the adzi
up2ng (16:03): yes
up2ng (16:03): that's the move
up2ng (16:03): continuation of threat, ignoring the opporutnity to capture
up2ng (16:03): leading to a win
zoeyk (16:04): hmm
zoeyk (16:04): this is slightly different again than i had imagined
up2ng (16:04): that's what i thought nosovs was saying when you quoted him -- although maybe his quote was incomplete i don't know -- we should ask him to elaborate
zoeyk (16:04): so many different examples
zoeyk (16:04): too vague
zoeyk (16:04): frustrating me it is
niobium (16:05): for me it's quite clear
up2ng (16:05): is this like what you are thinking niobium or is this not it?
up2ng (16:05): this last move to m13...
niobium (16:05): yes, it is
zoeyk (16:05): well nio can you make a post in the forum about this?
niobium (16:05): refusing a capture for the initiative
niobium (16:05): as simple as that
zoeyk (16:05): but is it limited to that?
up2ng (16:05): i'm not sure about the other concept of leaving your own pair undefended -- i think that's a seperate concept, but also important...
zoeyk (16:06): what about offering material to gain attack in other place?
niobium (16:06): maybe that's the most complicated adzi possible
niobium (16:06): and this is a simple one

up2ng (16:07): i thought it was about the possibility of capturing, NOT the possibility of being captured
zoeyk (16:07): it seems adzi is not caring about material loss in order to maintain tempo,.
up2ng (16:07): but i could be wrong -- i really had not heard of the term adzi before you quoted nosovs use of it
up2ng (16:07): both are important concepts
zoeyk (16:08): dean
niobium (16:08): only nosovs knows what he means with adzi
zoeyk (16:08): it comes from japans word AJI
zoeyk (16:08): adzi is russian spelling
zoeyk (16:08): google AJI to get more literature
zoeyk (16:08): nosovs told me
zoeyk (16:09): here in nosovs online book he talks about adzi
zoeyk (16:09): http://nosovsky.narod.ru/Pente.zip
up2ng (16:09): ok i'll check it out -- i'm not sure that pente traditionally used such terms -- all these guys come from renju backgrounds etc... but it might be valid to use such terms i guess
zoeyk (16:09): new nosovs quotes if you read
niobium (16:09): @up2ng, yes this is the main adzi concept,
zoeyk (16:09): http://nosovsky.narod.ru/Pente.zip
up2ng (16:09): he likes to talk about "atari" a lot also
niobium (16:09): but for me leaving my stones undefended for an atatck is very similar
zoeyk (16:09): atari values yes
up2ng (16:10): i just use other terms for the same thing like keystone capture, etc
up2ng (16:10): not sure if those are equivalent i can't remember lol
up2ng (16:10): hey guys sorry i gotta run i'm on baby duty
zoeyk (16:10): it is combination of threat of capture plus other levels of threat to make specific cap threat values that vary in level becuase of combo

up2ng (16:10): ttyl
(16:11) * up2ng has left the table *

zoeyk (16:11): hmm
zoeyk (16:11): can i post our conversation in the thread nio?
niobium (16:11): sure
zoeyk (16:11): ok

niobium (16:12): you could make a distinction between -
niobium (16:13): 1. instead of capturing , keeping the initiative,
niobium (16:13): 2. intead of defending a capture, keeping the initiative
niobium (16:14): for me those two are equivalent, but 1. is more close to nosovs definition

zoeyk (16:18): ahh
zoeyk (16:18): yes
zoeyk (16:18): very good point

zoeyk (16:18): did u see jasonb's example? he asked if its adzi and i said no to him
zoeyk (16:19): was i wrong?
niobium (16:19): I don't know, I haven't seen his post yet.
niobium (16:19): When a thread gets too long, I don't read all comments usually
zoeyk (16:21): ok
zoeyk (16:21): its in the adzi thread
zoeyk (16:21): in analysis
zoeyk (16:21): page one
niobium (16:22): jasonb vs guest?
zoeyk (16:22): yes
niobium (16:23): He could be right
niobium (16:24): 6. n8
niobium (16:25): In case adzi is that simple like we are thinking, then he is right.
zoeyk (16:25): i was afraid youd say that,... examples like that make it look like begginers stuff,.... not what i had in mind
zoeyk (16:26): if they get stuck on thinking its that example they wont be trained to see the complex stuff tho
niobium (16:26): you should ask nosovs about that game
zoeyk (16:26): yes i suppose so
zoeyk (16:29): it is stuff like this that puts me at a dead stand still on the pente book im trying to write
zoeyk (16:29): its frustrating
zoeyk (16:29): and i feel helpless while waiting for others input
niobium (16:29): don't reveal everything
zoeyk (16:30): well
zoeyk (16:30): i have stuff scattered all ofer the forum,...scattered
zoeyk (16:30): the book brings it all together organized
zoeyk (16:30): they are buying the organized version
zoeyk (16:31): and
niobium (16:31): in gomoku (free) a beginner can beat a master after a week of play
zoeyk (16:31): there are some things i hold back on
niobium (16:31): I hope that will not come in pente
zoeyk (16:31): free?
niobium (16:32): with no opening rules
niobium (16:32): it's called free gomoku
zoeyk (16:32): oh you mean your scared ide give too many short cuts?
zoeyk (16:32): thede advance faster than naturally?
niobium (16:33): something like that
zoeyk (16:33): yes my book would do that perhaps

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 10:29 PM

Well, I've been hesitant to add to this thread since I'm not a Go player, but after following it for awhile and also checking in with how the term is used in Go, I think I can perhaps help out a bit here. This definition will still need a bit of refining, but... I believe adzi can be broadly defined in pente as "a situation in which one or more threatened pairs - either of one's own or of the opponent's" (these would be dead stones in Go) "are, over the course of one or more moves, played away from or temporarily abandoned with a new stone(s) played in some manner in which those "dead stones" are still a factor in order to improve one's overall board position or threats."

This can be as simple as the refusal of an early pair trade or as complicated as some of the later examples in this thread (which I have a tough time believing an AI would be able to exploit - as in Nosovs vs. Chessik).

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 11:10 PM

thanks watsu. yes thats pretty right on i think.
and yes i also have a hard time believing a AI could had played like chessik did here. one of the most impressive combos ive seen.

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 11:16 PM

ahh but what if white plays now O16 then L11?


im wondering if i did the game wrong. i was going on old memory. ill dig up think game link to see. any ways nosovs lost as P1.

but any ways i know the pair pair 3 was the key to chessiks winning. whether bluff or not.

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 11:20 PM

Here's a good example of when Adzi should have been employed further but was not, from a famous game-
with the correct move for P1 being 14. O13, not 14. N9, which loses P1 tempo and thus loses the game (and $4500 and a trip to California).

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 11:22 PM

ahhh ok so nosovs did a different 13th. that was his mistake then. but understandably so, it was not intuitive. im pretty damnn sure after chessik's pair pair 3 combo nosovs was having some doubts of winning.

heres the link to the game showing his other 13th.

but aside from this new thing i just realized, it still is a great example in theory. becuase this type of stuff can happen where it actually works. so the point still stands that complex adzi is real.

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 11:45 PM

If O16, L15. I looked at that line, I think it also loses....

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 13, 2010, 11:58 PM

oh my! your right! so blacks adzi combo really does work. again, impressive!

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 14, 2010, 12:03 AM

any how, so in that opening as i said before. whites 6th is the turning point. N14 is loss, and O14 is win, for white. but we always thought both were the same perfect play. N14 was a common P1 line for masters. chessiks has decimated N14. so now O14 is the way to go. will be very interesting if the same tactics could stop O14 too,.. but im doubting it will happen.

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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 15, 2010, 11:57 PM

The game is two dimensional, geometric.
Aji is a point of turning within it, a gathering of traction and momentum. The loser looks back, like Hansel and Gretel, at the crumbs missed...


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Re: Adzi (Russian) or AJI (Japanese) nosovs's Pente concept from Go.
Posted: Nov 16, 2010, 11:54 AM

ahh thats a neat quote. wonder where you got it from.

so, i think that applies a little more to Go than pente tho.

because in pente aji, or adzi, doesn't imply a turning point. it can simply be a continuation of winning flow, whether tempo increases or not. its a little more like a tactic or style of moving, than a flip flop of whos in the lead.

the gathering of traction and momentum i can agree with.
the loser looking back at bread crumbs missed im not sure applies to pente. because if the adzi user is P1 using perfect play, then there wasn't really any missed crumbs to had been used for P2 to win. the bread crumb thing seems to imply P1 didn't play perfectly before or while using adzi tactics.

this of course is just my opinion, as we are still trying to formulate this term into pente. and when moving a term from one game to another it usually becomes altered in meaning some how ive noticed.

but very interesting quote, thank you for sharing it valley boy.

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