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jasonb

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Re: Concept: Initiative
Posted: Mar 30, 2010, 6:58 AM

Jason said "In terms of the game of Pente, I think of initiative as having control. We all know that feeling of when we loose or gain control. Simply put, the person that has the flexibility to determine the course of the game is the one with the initiative, IMO."

Zoey said ">determine the course
please define "the course". does this imply that the one determining the course has sure win in perfect play?
or does it not imply this?"



Zoey,
IMO, to determine the course means to have control over the game for the foreseeable future. I think we can all agree that this control can and often does switch during game play.

In this example, I would say that Player 1 had the initiative until move 8, at which point, Player 2 took control of the game. Could Player 1 have done things differently and kept the initiative? Sure . . . but they did not, so they lost the initiative.




zoeyk

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Re: Concept: Initiative
Posted: Mar 30, 2010, 7:56 AM

up2ng;
>in my opinion it is just as accurate to describe very early opening moves ("potentials")



initiative can be as simple as potentials in your opinion i see,..this is good,.. then we can take it a step further and say that a dominant dormant position of no emediate potential is also the same, thus falls under the the pente term of initiative. i mean, where do we draw the line at that point. and i would agree to a dominant dormant position as being a form of winning initiative.
i hope we can agree on this much.



up2ng;
>We certainly don't need to go around making up a whole
>new list of terms and acronyms, none of which are common usage at all.



"we certainly don't"? i'm not sure what you base that off of dean. and "none of which are common usage at all"? of course they aren't, otherwise we wouldn't be calling them "new"(as you call it) would we? lol
almost redundant, and at the same time im not sure how just because something is new is a automatic justification of why it shouldn't exist...
im sure there's all kinds of historical examples to explain that to you.




up2ng;
>I'm not convinced that using the term initiative in the context of how it's commonly used in Pente is inadequate or incomplete



really? its context of how its commonly used is vague, generic, flexible to mean what ever someone wants at the time. you your self are questioning a aspect of the term in this thread, sooOOoo... your very fast to say it is not inadequate or incomplete.



up2ng;
Well rules of thumb often do have exceptions or do not always describe boundary conditions, etc, and zoey's descriptions were searching for a more complete or robust solution for the concept. Certainly there are many important points within those descriptions




those points i made were very true, and very accurate and complete. they undid initiative's problem of being vague. it is a generic term for all situations for lack of better terms. the popular swiss army knife go to term for people that dont have the right tool for the right job of explaining a pente situation. its like people trying to explain quantum physics with a language vocabulary only containing 50 words or so. it becomes over simplified in a bad way.



up2ng;
The worst thing you can do in situations like this, IMHO, is to refer to Websters Dictionary and then stick like glue to a very literal "all purpose" definition. Words have common usage, slang, phraseology and so on that is not described in any dictionary, but is still part of our language.




the worst thing i can do,.. is not let you take a Websters word and alter its meaning and stick it into the urban dictionary? OH MY, initiative is like the Ebonics of pente lol
slang, and phraseology has some how trumped Websters,.. ok sorry i didn't get the memo on that dean.
phraseology? does a single word count as a phrase?
slang at best i think here,.. which is ok,.. but if we are just goina use flexible slang words here,.. then why are you stopping me from making new slang words to clarify that which was vague?




zoeyk;
"so now that we know that initiative does not mean sure win."

up2ng;
I missed the leap you're making here, as I don't believe we know any such thing.



well, clearly i meant what the literal Websters definition means to the term, and in that respect i think it false to say you missed the leap since clearly you admittedly get it, but i know you mean to say that initiative is a slang word only coincidentally found spelled the same as the Websters one and even more freaky is they "almost" share the same definition lol.







zoeyk;
"lierally in the situation of you doing a extension to 4 and then back to blocking the opponents winning moves afer that, your extension to 4 was initiative."

up2ng;
I'm going to disagree strongly with this. This is simply not how initiative is used in Pente. When there is literally no threat happening except for a single obvious move, there is no initiative there. To me, this one should be obvious although I'm sure I didn't do a great job of explaining why.



i know what you mean, i was just showing what the results of Websters literal definition was. scary i know...

if to use initiative alone, and never add a word to it to make a specific new "phrase" to clarify it's meaning in given situations, then Websters does disagree with you. i realize you don't care. and this stubbornness i feel hurts pente terms more than help them. hey i like to keep things simple like the best of them, but some times a extra word or two is needed to be clear.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: Concept: Initiative
Posted: Mar 30, 2010, 8:22 AM

to jason,
im still not sure if you are saying that initiative automatically implies sure win in perfect play by default or not.

please answer in the form of,
it does,
or
it does not.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: Concept: Initiative
Posted: Mar 30, 2010, 9:01 AM

ANY ONE IS welcome to answer this post's questions in their own opinion.



ok, lets do this,
lets do this similar to the game show Jeopardy.
I'll make a list of definitions, and you tell me what is the correct word or phrase for them. specify if its the Websters defined word(s), or if its a slang word(s).


Definitions;

1- a "dominant" and "dormant" position of no immediate potential or threat that has sure win in perfect play.

2- a "dominant" position of no immediate threat, but does have a potential looming to use, that has sure win in perfect play.

3- pushing player one into a move juncture of unintuitive choices of 3 or more moves/paths to select from, where player one has a 60% chance or greater of choosing a sure loss path.

4- temporary Threats, whether in a single string of threats, or in a multiple series of strings of threats of 2 or more strings that in perfect play are sure loss.

5- temporary Threats, whether in a single string of threats, or in a multiple series of strings of threats of 2 or more strings that in perfect play inevitably lead to the obtainment of a Victory by continuous threats.

6- continuous threats that ultimately leads to the obtainment of a unstoppable double threat, or greater, in perfect play, that results in sure win, where the double threat can not be defused.

7- Player ones first move of K10

8- all moves made before the first forcing move is played

9- all moves made after the first forcing move is made, but before the first move made in a string of "victory by continuous threats" is played

10- receiving sure win by way of opponent making an error. (sure win implies perfect play post error)

11- giving the opponent sure win by way of own error. (sure win implies perfect play post error)




The following are add on attachments, not to be used by them selves, but to be connected to one of the above definitions when appropriate;

Additions;

A- and the loser has a "Vast Move Tree Width" to utilize".

B- and the loser has a "Vast Move Tree Depth" to utilize".

C- and the loser has a "Vast Move Tree of Width and Depth" to utilize".



.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Mar 30, 2010 4:20 PM

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alisontate

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Re: Concept: Initiative
Posted: Mar 30, 2010, 11:46 AM

zoey, as I said before, if you use victory or loss of the game as the sole criterion for deciding if someone has the initiative then you would apply either definition 10 or 11 in your list with the modification that the phraze "sure win" expanded to say "sure win under perfect play".

However, as I also said before there is no new information in this definition. Saying someone has the initiative is the same as saying that regardless of what moves they make, as long as there is no error they cannot help but win. Since that is true of K10, it amounts to just pointing out the obvious.

If the result of pente is predetermined unless error occurs then the person with the initiative is just a beneficiary of their opponent's most recent error. As you have said, the winner is the one who made the second to last mistake. You could equally say that the winner is the one who managed to hold onto the initiative provided by the error of the opponent by not making the last error in the game.

Thus initiative is not something you create but inherent, and is something you only get to keep if you don't make mistakes, so why all the fuss about it?. I think it would profit us more to focus all our attention on the avoidance of error rather than the explication of what you call initiative.


Message was edited by: alisontate at Mar 30, 2010 9:43 AM

jasonb

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Re: Concept: Initiative
Posted: Mar 30, 2010, 5:27 PM

Zoey,
You asked "im still not sure if you are saying that initiative automatically implies sure win in perfect play by default or not.
please answer in the form of,
it does,
or
it does not."



It does. However, there is no such thing as perfect play because humans are not perfect; we make mistakes. When a player makes a mistake, they can and often do give the initiative to the other Player. The player with the initiative will win, IF they manage to keep it.

You either have initiative or you don't. Which means you're either winning or not winning.

Initiative = In Control = Winning Posture.

Lack of Initiative = Not in Control = Loosing Posture.

zoeyk

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Re: Concept: Initiative
Posted: Mar 30, 2010, 7:29 PM

ok alison i have added the modification to 10 and 11 as requested.
now can you guys please take the definitions list as requested and copy n paste them in to your new post and under each of them please type the word(s) or Phrase(s) that best match the definitions?

some of these may seem silly to you, but just humor me.

there is a method to my madness here.

and thanks for your opinion on initiative jasonb.


i realize you guys think im arguing with you about whether or not initiative means what we all think it means, maybe im just playing devils advocate.

im just waiting for you guys to read carefully the definitions i wrote, especially the ones that are almost written the same, and i want to see how many thing get grouped under the same word or phrase.

thanks for your cooperation.

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nosovs

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Re: Concept: Initiative
Posted: Mar 30, 2010, 8:26 PM

http://brainking.com/ru/ArchivedGame?g=3097658&i=18
9... R11

Interesting position in game gaylen-Richardiii at Brainking
The Initiative seems at Gaylen side but seems Richard has sure win in this position. How you can define such positions, and how you can define the plan on continue this position.
May be gaylen can try to defend it by moves like 10 J9 ?

zoeyk

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Re: Concept: Initiative aka Sente aka Momentum aka Sure Win
Posted: Mar 30, 2010, 9:07 PM

Thank You Nosovsky!

this position of Black to R11 with White to move, falls under the following Definitions as posted in my above thread;
(Note, these are based on the assumption that White has "sure win" here in "perfect play")


1- a "dominant" and "dormant" position of no immediate potential or threat that has sure win in perfect play.

it also falls under this Definition;

3- pushing player one into a move juncture of unintuitive choices of 3 or more moves/paths to select from, where player one has a 60% chance or greater of choosing a sure loss path.



now that i think about it, i can add another description to the particular example as the Victor can not create a chosen and relatively controlled path very fast.

addition;
C- and the loser has a "Vast Move Tree of Width and Depth" to utilize"



K10,O9,G12,M9,J12,K12,M8,L9,N9,K9,L7,K6,P11,O10,O11,O8,Q11,R11






and, once Player One plays to J9 on the 10th move as you proposed with black to move, the Position would then fall under the next following Definition, with the same previous add on attached to it.


2- a "dominant" position of no immediate threat, but does have a potential looming to use, that has sure win in perfect play.

addition;
C- and the loser has a "Vast Move Tree of Width and Depth" to utilize"




and Black has the High Potential to do the following Potential Definition;


3- pushing player one into a move juncture of unintuitive choices of 3 or more moves/paths to select from, where player one has a 60% chance or greater of choosing a sure loss path.




K10,O9,G12,M9,J12,K12,M8,L9,N9,K9,L7,K6,P11,O10,O11,O8,Q11,R11,J9








.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Mar 30, 2010 3:39 PM

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zoeyk

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Re: Concept: Initiative aka Sente aka Momentum aka Sure Win
Posted: Mar 31, 2010, 12:19 AM

See, here's the problem im looking at in the slang term initiative.


long ago in the first couple years of Pente's creation some brilliant minds where trying to figure out Pente.
they grabbed the word initiative or initiate possibly inspired from chess (or hey Websters ya never know) and used it,.. loosely?

to tell me in 30 years if "used loosely" that no one could improve upon this i find hard to swallow.

and here's where i see the problem rooted from (if used loosely),

they should had defined situations first, then after that, and only then could they figure out what were the correct word(s) term(s) phrase(s). a form of reverse engineering the problem.
(i say them with a (s) to show that a situation can contain multiple definitions over lapped depending on complexity.)

because if you don't know what the problem or question is, then how can you know what the solution or answer is?

a generic all around term is a lazy band-aid of over simplified thought not wanting to dive into the depths of the intricacy of "the many states of the board".



.

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zoeyk

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Re: Concept: Initiative ,Sente,Momentum,Tempo,Dominant Position,Sure Win
Posted: Mar 31, 2010, 12:29 AM

and i know nosovs would like adzi and atari some how slipped into the conversation of initiative,.. so I'll throw in his writings about it. perhaps we can have a look at it and see how it incorporates, and perhaps see if there's any room for additional improvements.



Atari : (a Japanese Go term)to lay a stone that threatens to cap. <- defined by richardiii




Atari - next move will be capture, so you have to react on this threat.

There is different Atari

Atari-4 (atari with four after capture),
Atari-4* (atari with 5 -th capture threat)
Atari-3 (atari with three after capture)
Atari-3* (atari with 4 -th capture threat, and possibility make atari-4* next move)
Atari - just capture
The level of threat is different - that is important.

Adzi - This is a understanding of your own strategy, and ignoring atari, because of attacking opponent. Because when you capture - you lose tempo. So , that is keeping tempo of your own attack.







nosovs I'de like to ask again for you to make a line to show what adzi can look like on the board. please create for me a adzi situation. I'de do it my self, but i think its your place to do it first. yes?

also i think watsu asked you for a source reference of where to find something written about adzi that is not just from pente.org.

thanks



Ps. to nosovs;
you said;
"Atari - next move will be capture, so you have to react on this threat."

Am i wrong to say that you do not always have to react on this threat? surely this can be worded better, yes?

again thanks



.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Mar 30, 2010 6:33 PM

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gaylen

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Re: Concept: Initiative aka Sente aka Momentum aka Sure Win
Posted: Mar 31, 2010, 1:07 AM

Good term to discuss and get somewhat of an agreement on between pente players.

OK. Tom Braunlich was a recent state champion chess player before he wrote a couple of books on the subject talking about beginning pente strategy. I lent the books out once and never got them back, but I remember Tom showing various structures to set up for play and the next step would be the strategy for when to play the initiative, or the point where you are the first player forming threats (by filling in the structure) requiring a response of defense by p2.
This I took to mean the point at which a player (usually p1) would start playing threats by filling in stones among the structure he had set (usually 3 to 4 stone formations). I don't believe playing the initiative, or momentum was ever meant to imply who will win. Otherwise how could you use the term unless you had a supercomputer that could calculate every move possible as to who the winner would be. Hence, the term "playing the initiative" would have no meaning unless you knew who was really supposed to take that particular initiative/momentum to a win? It just means the initiating of playing and forming continuous threats for your opponent to respond to (for at least a series of 3 moves, I would like to say, in pente).
I was thinking then that playing the initiative was a term mainly to be thought of or mentioned in opening game. As like a player initiating a series of threats off an initial structure of say 3 previously played stones. But as Tom Braunlich was first a chess player and he talks about playing the initiative in opening pente play, I thought reviewing the chess definition (again?) for initiative would be appropriate.

Initiative
Main article: initiative (chess)
The advantage that a player who is making threats has over the player who must respond to them. The attacking player is said to "have the initiative". s/he can often turn the play as s/he wills. The initiative often results from an advantage in time and/or space.

Initiative in a chess position belongs to the player who can make threats that cannot be ignored. He thus puts his opponent in the position of having to use his turns responding to threats rather than making his own.[1] A player with the initiative will often seek to maneuver his pieces into more and more advantageous position as he launches successive attacks. The player who lacks the initiative may seek to regain it through counterattack. The importance of initiative is summed up in the syllogism that initiative is necessary to attack; and attacking is necessary to win (i.e. by capturing pieces and checkmating the opposing king); therefore initiative is needed to force a win.

Due to moving first, White starts the game with the initiative, but it can be squandered in the opening by accepting a gambit. Players can also lose initiative by making unnecessary moves that allow the opponent to gain tempo, such as superfluous "preventive" moves intended to guard against certain actions by the opponent, that nonetheless require no specific response by them. The concept of tempo is closely tied to initiative, as players can acquire the initiative or buttress it by gaining a tempo.
The initiative is important in all phases of the game, but more important in the endgame than in the middlegame and more important in the middlegame than in the opening (Euwe & Meiden 1966vii,xxii). Having the initiative puts the opponent on the defensive.

This definition looks good to me and fits with the general understanding I have of the term. I like to think of "playing the initiative" as being the first player to play the first threat (tria usually) in a series of threats, or the potential for momentum.
In Watsu's example of Hudson ver Tesh, Hudson never played a tria until move 7 due to the nature of the opening. The threat comes late and with sketchy structure but I suppose you could say that Hudson played his initiative at move 7 with move M10. So, if this game were being discussed might one point out that Hudson played the first initiative at move 7 and then gave up the momentum on that initiative at move 19 by playing Q8 instead of K10? (which would also have led to a win)
And then Rollie could have played K10 assuring structure for a win, but played O14 returning 'potential for momentum and assured win' back to Peter Hudson.

It just doesn't seem apt in bringing up "playing the initiative" maybe for the 2nd or 3rd incident over the course of the game.
Would someone say, "p1 regained the initiative on move 10, but then p2 took the initiative back again on move 14"?

I think it is good though to understand what "playing the initiative" means though, especially starting out, as this should be considered one of the basic strategy elementals of the game. I also think the chess definition of initiative is fine. But, maybe if pente became more popular for discussion of explaning details or segments of the game, then more terms and ways of discussing the game should be developed.

I hope this makes things a little more confusing.

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro!
zoeyk

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Re: Concept: Initiative aka Sente aka Momentum aka Sure Win
Posted: Mar 31, 2010, 1:29 AM

Thank You Gaylen!
an excellent post indeed.

I'm goina reread it a few times before responding,
but in the mean time ide like to inquire 2 things.
1- what code are you using to make that emoticon? lol
2- what is the url to site your source of this chess article.


and i had a hunch that the old timers where not using the term initiative as loosely as up2ng does for example.

although you require initiative to have sure win, having initiative does not always mean that you have sure win. i think that is very important to come to terms with here.
we simply can not move forward until that much is agreed on i think.


and i like how momentum and tempo were slightly different than initiative, i also like the time and/or space part.
good stuff.


Ide like to add at this point that i am finding this thread extremely productive, even if others might disagree.
thank you up2ng for getting it going!


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Mar 30, 2010 7:36 PM

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zoeyk

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Re: Concept: Initiative ,Sente,Momentum,Tempo,Dominant Position,Sure Win
Posted: Mar 31, 2010, 1:55 AM

back to my Definitions for a second,
in the following;

Additions;

A- and the loser has a "Vast Move Tree Width" to utilize".

B- and the loser has a "Vast Move Tree Depth" to utilize".

C- and the loser has a "Vast Move Tree of Width and Depth" to utilize".



you might ask,
"what defines Vast?"
and "is there a semi Vast too, or several levels to define for that matter?"
and "where to you draw the lines and by what method?"

a very good question, that at some point i wish to address, but i will need to make some visual pictures first for it to make sense. so when i get a chance I'll post on it.

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gaylen

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Re: Concept: Initiative aka Sente aka Momentum aka Sure Win
Posted: Mar 31, 2010, 2:01 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_chess
There's one or two links under the term "initiative"

The emotican is encoded on the page...I tried to 'view source' on the page but running out of time trying to locate it right now. I see it's called love.gif

When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro!
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