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Topic: It is time to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Replies: 31   Views: 117,575   Pages: 3   Last Post: Apr 5, 2009, 7:29 AM by: zoeyk

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zoeyk

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Nov 29, 2008, 6:48 AM

watsu: we could play random position duplicate Pente and open up a whole new realm of possibilities for the game




random position duplicate Pente...

duplicate Pente?

what does this mean?

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Nov 29, 2008, 6:54 AM

See this thread for more on the idea of random position duplicate Pente.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
up2ng

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From: Northeast USA
Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Nov 29, 2008, 7:32 AM

Ok, so I thought zoeyk's idea of scoring white's 2nd moves was kind of interesting, so I'll start the ball rolling. I'll be interested to see how much contraversey this stirs up since players are bound to have much different opinions as to the values of various options.

My simplistic scoring method assumes 0 is perfectly neutral (which does not exist) and a positive score means that white has a winning position. The "best" winning move available is given the maximum score of 10. Scores from 1 - 9 reflect proportional difficulty / complexity of winning as compared to the move with a score of 10.

The following is my initial "at first glance" analysis of all possible 2nd moves for white following the popular 1. K10, L10; opening. No detailed analysis of any kind was used in coming up with these values and so they may not be perfectly accurate even to me, but they are pretty much ballpark accurate with what I think about these moves. It is possible that some moves with low scores might actually turn out to be losing positions against perfect play by excellent players and conversely it is possible that some moves labelled as a LOSS might actually be salvagable wins for excellent players playing perfectly.

White's second move after 1. K10, L10;

N10 = 8
O10 = 1
N11 = 4
O11 = 2
N12 = 6
O12 = 1
N13 = LOSS
O13 = LOSS
N14 = 1
O14 = LOSS
M13 = 7
M14 = 2
L13 = 5
L14 = 2
K13 = 10
K14 = 3
J13 = 3
J14 = 1
H13 = 3
H14 = 1
G13 = LOSS
G14 = LOSS
F13 = LOSS
F14 = LOSS
G12 = 2
F12 = LOSS
G11 = 3
F11 = 1
G10 = LOSS
F10 = LOSS

I'm interested to see comments on these values and/or other players' rundown of values for these same moves.

watsu

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Nov 29, 2008, 7:53 AM

Wow, approximately 20 winning second moves for white on that opening (by your admittedly rough sketch) with about 3/4 of them being legitimate moves in G pente. Interesting.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Nov 29, 2008, 8:08 AM

can you put a board showing in that post next to those moves?
its better in yours to minimize scrolling to review positions while reading values.



WITH 10 LOSING WHITE MOVES INCLUDED




the code;
g=Pente bm=L10 wm=K10,N10,O10,N11,O11,N12,O12,N13,O13,N14,O14,M13,M14,L13,L14,K13,K14,J13,J14,H13,H14,G13,G14,F13,F14,G12,F12,G11,F11,G10,F10





ONLY WINNING WHITE MOVES




the code;
g=Pente bm=L10 wm=K10,N10,O10,N11,O11,N12,O12,N14,M13,M14,L13,L14,K13,K14,J13,J14,H13,H14,G12,G11,F11


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Nov 29, 2008 2:19 AM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Nov 29, 2008, 8:29 AM

some of the moves you declared as a loss are suspect.
and same goes for some of the moves declared as a winning move.

before i even get into values here i think we need to first come to a firm determination of the winning and losing moves.

and i suppose putting the boards wont be needed since mine are close enough.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
nosovs

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Nov 30, 2008, 2:35 PM

Just choose opening moves of strong players from Database as structure of openning libruary.
And then do as mike wrote.
If you find sure win - that means other variants not consider anymore/

watsu

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Dec 1, 2008, 2:31 AM

Who is mike, or where did he write it (if you mean mike321) nosovs?

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
nosovs

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Dec 2, 2008, 4:12 PM

Yes mike321
I saw his message

zoeyk

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Dec 2, 2008, 7:52 PM

well alex,..

mike did not make a post in "this" thread. (unless he has a alternate name i should know of?)
so you probably saw his post in a different thread.
or perhaps it was someone else who posted and you thought it was mike.

but it doesn't matter. i understand your point either way.
you think that finding a singular path to the win solves the game. and,...your right. it does solve the game.

that is one type of opening theory. that is the most simplistic theory. and perhaps it is the best way to theorize the opening.
but in opening theory a complex over all variation can be nice to.

I'm "not" saying to show every possible 3rd move of each for every possible opening.

What "I am" saying, is to classify every possible 2nd of white, in response to every black first.

to show the boards value at the beginning

give white's 2nd moves a value (scored 1-10).
from that chose the top 1 or more white second move(s) to review. if one of the moves is strongest then set their value as such. if 2 or more is found equal then set their value as such (as equal).
then take the highest move(s) and map out every move that black can do. from there pick out the top (equal) move(s) white can do as a 3rd.

there is more than one equal path in the game.

one path is all it takes, true.

but sometimes an opponent has studied your moves to find weakness. (not a losing weakness), but a weakness to make you struggle for the win.
and it is nice to have equal paths to switch to, "when desired" -(as opposed to "when needed").

i've noticed alex,..that in many openings you've done, when your white,..
you change your 2nds and 3rds.
so,..if you believe in one perfect path, then why do you do this???

the idea behind why you do it, is perhaps relevant to why some one would want to explore more than one path in a opening theory.

do you disagree alex?

...unless you are saying that you changed some of your white's 2nds & 3rds becuase you had errored as white...


and then when we have the best paths mapped out. i would like to have it explained as to why these are the best moves.

a calcutaor will tell me a answer,..but ide like to know how to find the solution with out this handy cap. so that when i don't have a calculator,..i have the understanding
of how to find the solution on my own. by understanding the principles of "how to read the board".

as opposed to just looking at what the masters do in the data base and just trusting that they were right.

i think the game posted in the begining of this thread is a good example of what i mean, if i say that "The Master's White moves in the openings can be wrong".


~zoeyk

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
nosovs

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Dec 4, 2008, 7:58 AM

Sometimes, I played wrong oppenings just for that aim, that my opponent in main Final Tournament thinking that I'll play that variant and will choose this oppening in the game with me.
It is strategy, never belive strong players (they always left something additionally) !

zoeyk

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Dec 4, 2008, 10:05 AM

I knew it! ha!


i had a conversation about this recently,..
i suspected a premeditated strategy of which i like to call "back door creation".

in software design there are back door ports,..programmers have been said to make holes in security systems. so that they can sneak in. but many others assume that the programmer had made it flawless.
in reference to pente this would be the white offence.
create and use a white offense that is strong and seemingly perfect. but have it be flawed with one acception. you know the flaw from the beginning. but none else sees it. you do well with it. so the others trust in it and use it. once it becomes widely popular and used, it is harvest time, as you exploit the flaw on as many players possible before the mass majority finds out about the trickery.
yes,...do not trust the masters,.. their white is flawed purposely sometimes in hopes you will copy them in blind faith.

~zoeyk

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Dec 4, 2008, 11:40 AM

to continue on the same topic of "back door creation".

myself, jozso, jhs55, and others had helped to pad the data base with flawed results unsuspectingly.

heres the opening that i mean,..

K10,K9,N10,J11,K12

This 3rd shows up in the data base with a win ratio above 66% !
that ratio looks better then the other white thirds (that are better then K12 in actuality).

even jozso had came to the conclusion that K12 could not be beat if played right.

I had hoped that players would start using it.

it seemed perfect,..how ever K12 had one flaw,..a hidden flaw,...not easily found.

And Guess who found it before i did,...
Yup, Richardiii did. Whooped me in a rated set with a flaw of K12.

and here is the game, and that is why this game was posted in the P2 hall of fame thread.



Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Dec 9, 2008, 10:03 PM

ok so to go back on topic here,..

after me and up2ng had reviewed some of the moves he had scored,.. it is becoming clear that they are not completely accurate. in order to accurately score all moves would take hundreds of hours of testing,..
so this method of opening theory will not be good. to much time required for accurate answers.

so like nosovs suggested, i would like to go back to a simplified theory of either a singular path,..or 2 singular paths.
a 2 jump theory,
and a theory including 2 jumps, 3 jumps, special jumps, and broken wing jumps.
basically a up2ng theory, and a karlw theory.
path A, and path B.

the 3 jump is questionable. i believe karl removed it,.but im sure its still a valid move.
so given this difference,..perhaps i will devise a 3rd path ill call my own. all of which are winning paths IMO.
and are only a few of many that will not be listed in the end results for the sake of simplification and time.

also i will be reviewing karls A, B and C family groups of blacks first moves to see if that is really the best way to classify and group them.
there may turn out to be another way to arrange the P2 firsts.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: It is time, to review Karlw's Opening Theory.
Posted: Dec 10, 2008, 11:03 AM

this is just to show a ruff draft im working on...



Group A: K9, L9, M9, N9
If white answers all four of these openings
with N10 (and he should), the positions that follow are very
similar (two identical pairs, actually), and lead to a very
distinct level of play between two strong players. These
openings are based on destroying white from the inside,
trying to interfere with white's plans by building an open 3
early or blocking all his initiative.

The K9 Opening - 1 path for white




The L9 Opening - 1 path for white




The M9 Opening - 1 path for white




The K9 Opening - 1 path for white









Group B: K8, N8, O9, O8, O7

These five mid and longe range openings might not look like they have
much in common distancewise, but after black's 2nd
move a common threat may arise: black can play to
divert the keystone(K10) with its second move.

These are mostly based on the threat of building
an open three, or a draw move -(a pair or group
of 2 stones touching tempting a capture trade
)
which white must make a pair to block, then
threatening that pair. I call this tactic
"diversion," and it is a very important principle
of openings, because white is unable to build
momentum without the keystone. How ever if the
capture trade in a draw attack leaves white in a
favorible position, then position can be favorable
over having a forcing momentum. how ever this
usually turns the game tactical (as opposed to
being positional
), which will give black
better odds in some situations depending on
white's tactical skill level.
often times though, the capture trade will leave
white in a un-favorable position, thus often
times white will want to defend from a capture trade.

Another tactic these moves can do in many cases is
to make a second move conductive with its first
move away from the whites stones. then if white
does a building move(as opposed to making a
forcing 3 Ie; XX_X or X_XX
) then black can
"Possibly" play a blocking move (usually
addressing K10 but not allways
) which will not
only slow down white's momentum, but can connect up
with the first 2 black stones creating a potential
building structure.



The K8 Opening - 2 paths for white




The N8 Opening - 3 paths for white




The O9 Opening - 2 paths for white




The O8 Opening - 3 paths for white




The O7 Opening - 2 paths for white







Group C: M8, N7, K7, O10



The N7 Opening - 1 path for white




The M8 Opening - 2 paths for white




The K7 Opening - 3 paths for white




The O10 Opening - 2 paths for white




Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Replies: 31   Views: 117,575   Pages: 3   [ Previous | 1 2 3 | Next ]
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