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P2's (karlw's) K9 M8 opening indepth analysis. A work in progress.
Posted:
Aug 8, 2007, 11:10 PM
K10,K9,N10,M8
K10,K9,N10,M8,L12,M9
K10,K9,N10,M8,L12,M9,M10,L10
K10,K9,N10,M8,L12,M9,M10,L10,M7,O10
This has been his open to these white moves.
So far the first 5 moves are a garauntee.
The real thought comes into Whites sixth move.
So far M11 , N10 , or M9 have defeated him, allthow he has since adjusted and fixed his mistakes.
There is possibly a new idea for a sixth white move.
K10,K9,N10,M8,L12,M9,M10,L10,M7,O10,M11
M11 move, Spifster was the first to beat him with this in Regular Pente.^^^^^
K10,K9,N10,M8,L12,M9,M10,L10,M7,O10,M9
M9 move, Spifster was the first to beat him with this aswell in Regular Pente.^^^^^
K10,K9,N10,M8,L12,M9,M10,L10,M7,O10,N10
N10 move^^^^^, newly discovered by Boat_rules my alt. name during Speed Pente with karlw. When karlw moves M11 he losses, but so far when he moves J8 he has won. But I think with enough thought his J8 move can be defeated. After all it was only tried twice in speed pente.
Who knows,........any thoughts on these openings?
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: Possibly a new flaw of Karlw's black open
Posted:
Aug 9, 2007, 12:12 AM
Also another interesting opening where BigBoy discovered a way to win against Karlw.
When Karlw gets to the 5th move for black, he has chosen 3 different moves, O10, J8, or M11. The only time Karlw was defeated on this opening was in this game vs Bigboy where on Karlw's 5th move he chose to move J8.
J8 on the fifth as black for Karlw currently has a 2 to 1 ratio win to loss.
O10 is ratio 8 to 0 win to loss.
M11 ratio is 1 to 0 win to loss.
Conclusion; O10 appears to be his strongest and most common choice on Blacks fifth move for this open. K10,K9,N10,M8,L8,M9,
K10,K9,N10,M8,L8,M9,M10,L10
K10,K9,N10,M8,L8,M9,M10,L10,M7,J8
^^^ Up above here, he does J8 for the fifth move, But most commonly he does O10 on this fifth move. At a total of 8 wins zero losses it is his strongest move to go O10. So dont do this open expecting him to slip up with a J8 move on the fifth of Black.
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Re: Possibly a new flaw of Karlw's black open
Posted:
Aug 9, 2007, 2:56 AM
And now,..the N8 Opening. Most commonly tried on his M8 Opening. In 16 total games attempted he has only lost 4 times. Once each by, Richardiii, Kungfoodie, Sparticus, & Abtmn30.
The fallowing are the only 3 moves on whites 4th move to ever achieve a victory against Karlw on this Opening.
N9 with 4 games played, and 1 victory for white. 25% Played by; Abtmn30.
P10 with 3 games played, and 2 victories for white. 66.7% Played by; Richardiii, & Sparticus.
L12 with 2 games played and 1 victory for white. 50% Played by; Kungfoodie.
K10,K9,N10,M8,N8,L10
K10,K9,N10,M8,N8,L10,N9
N9 move with 4 games played, and 1 victory for white. 25% Played by; Abtmn30.
K10,K9,N10,M8,N8,L10,P10
P10 move with 3 games played, and 2 victories for white. 66.7% Played by; Richardiii, & Sparticus.
K10,K9,N10,M8,N8,L10,L12
L12 move with 2 games played and 1 victory for white. 50% Played by; Kungfoodie.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: Possibly a new flaw of Karlw's black open
Posted:
Aug 9, 2007, 9:06 AM
Wow! First off, I'm impressed and humbled that you would take such a systematic and analytical approach to deconstructing my latest opening. You've almost put more thought into beating it than I have into playing it! A few notes:
-I started playing pente as purely a positional player, and have only recently started to become more tactical.
-Every time I lose a pente game, I go to the database and find out where I went wrong, and find a better move to replace my mistake. So keep in mind that the database isn't nearly an accurate reflection of my current strategy.
-I've played several games with this opening on brainking, so don't consider this the complete compendium of my moves.
-And most importantly, you're completely neglecting what I consider to the best answer to 2...M8. Yes, those are all good answers and I've had my share of losses to all of them, but there's one that annoys me more than all of them, so much that I had to create my own quirky response to it so that players would be thrown off and forced into a tactical game instead of a positional one.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: Possibly a new flaw of Karlw's black open
Posted:
Aug 9, 2007, 11:00 PM
I might also point out that this variant has been played for awhile and I myself have even played it as P2. P2's opening sequence here is a good move, but nothing is unbeatable in pente. It all just depends how much time and study someone is willing to put into it in order to beat the line. I'm sure I could find a few ways to do it...really depends on who you're playing against, their skill level (and response), as well as how hard white is actually trying to not lose the P1 advantage.
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Re: Possibly a new flaw of Karlw's black open
Posted:
Aug 12, 2007, 7:23 PM
I think we cannot use a term 'flaw' to describe p2's opening because EVERY opening should be won by p1 if he plays the best moves he can at the moment. Pente is very unbalanced and the reason why you consider this to be a good opening is that it hasn't been as much analyzed as other openings. You can notice that there is something that can be called ' a fashion' for one particular opening that last as long as it's been played so many times by good players that they no longer consider it to be good and try finding something new, of course the old one will not be forgotten and will be played from time to time but not as much as when it is 'on top'
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Re: P2's (karlw's) K9 M8 opening indepth analysis. A work in progress.
Posted:
Aug 13, 2007, 9:14 AM
This is every win ever against karlw on the K9 M8 p2 open that he does. First in separation of DSG Regular Pente,DSG Speed Pente,BrainKing.com Pente, and finally a sum of the total combined into a overall.
Re: P2's (karlw's) K9 M8 opening indepth analysis. A work in progress.
Posted:
Aug 13, 2007, 9:25 AM
Well this is close, but you're forgetting my alts on Brainking; karlw isn't the only name I use on that site. Look at karlwalt and danse macabre--those names have some good lines, especially DM. he was #1 until he got banned because of rat Alan P.
And K8 doesn't seem like a very strong move.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: P2's (karlw's) K9 M8 opening indepth analysis. A work in progress.
Posted:
Aug 13, 2007, 9:46 AM
This is a forcible opening choice for the P1's "N8" third move. It will bring you to this pattern with whites turn to move. Karl tried "L10" on his fifth move before but it didn't work. So, odds are he'll stick with the "O9" move which is shown here. Try to find the correct spot for white to move. Good luck.
K10,K9,N10,M8,N8,L10,M11,L12,J8,O9
K13 catchs my eye here, and has never been done but who knows ...so many choices.
The only ones tried here have been N10 L10 and H8. These three have never won. He's currently undefeated on this pattern. But,.. its only been tried 4 times... so theres still hope perhaps.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: P2's (karlw's) K9 M8 opening indepth analysis. A work in progress.
Posted:
Aug 13, 2007, 11:56 PM
elejpidi/zum: i played against my alt after it got banned, by accepting Danse Macabre's remaining 2 invites, so as to prevent Alan P, who had already taken one of them, from stealing more points from me. I only used the alts to play multiple tournamnets, since Fencer has the idiotic rule that you have to be a paying member to participate in more than one tournament with a single user ID.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
=======================N12====================== Could N12 be the move to eliminate your M8? N12 the one that has never worked on you before? No way that sounds unlikly. N12's never beaten u karl, but I plan to bring it back in a Big way lets see...
Below here are 5 games that have never ever been played before,.. just only in my head,.. perhaps in some one elses head too...$20 says your goina be changing your L10 move on the 4th now. lol
I accualy have found so many ways with the N12 L12 move to beat this that it would take several pages for me to post all possible victory combinations, so these 5 will do.
Ok this last one is a evil cat, and mouse. You would never accually play this all the way threw with out resigning first, and I wouldnt blame you. K10,K9,N10,M8,N12,N11,L12,L10,M12,K12,P12,O12,O11,M9,M13,L14,N14,O15,O13,M15,Q13,R14,P13,N13,P10,Q9,Q11,R10,O9,R12,R13,S13,T14,S13,M7,N8,M11,O7,M10,O10,Q15,P14,N16,P14,K13
Due to a combo I over looked I will be adding more now. This may prove more lengthly than i had hoped, but I am certain now that this is the correct line to persue.
By fallowing all of the line combo possibilities of block strech capture timings I have stumbled on to this.Its a big flaw in my line here. Back to the drawing board.
I'll do a little more study on the N12 L12 opening, but I fear I will conclude that it is flawed, and the wrong path to victory when black plays very percise moves in response. But,... I have threw this, really narrowed down blacks choices of how to win on this open I believe, and memorizing these moves will be needed to obtain victory over white for the N12 L12 open,.. In theory.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: P2's (karlw's) K9 M8 opening indepth analysis. A work in progress.
Posted:
Aug 16, 2007, 3:41 AM
well while im studying the N12 L12 open thats now giving me a headache, Im going to play around with a couple new ideas so as not to get burnt out on it.
The "N12 M11 Open" Part 1. I didnt find it in the data base so maybe it sucks and thats why no one does it. Or maybe no one thought of it.
lets see...