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Topic: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Replies: 20   Views: 4,905   Pages: 2   Last Post: Aug 16, 2023, 1:40 PM by: nedhall17

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karlw

Posts: 968
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Jul 28, 2023, 5:27 PM

In the history of master level pente, p2's first move N8 has been one of if not the most difficult for p1 to find a definitive best response. Using pente.org's database with games going back to 1998, we can track the evolution of popular reponses roughly as follows (caveat: this is purely the result of my own subjective analysis)--

The Early Internet Days (pre-2005): Little data. 2-point jumps dominate (K13, N10, K7, G10).

The N11 Revolution (2005-2007): Pente experiences an internet renaissance with dozens of master players from the US, Eastern Europe and Russia competing in live and turn-based tournaments. As this new wave of top players experiment with unorthodox "off-axis" p1 2nd moves, N11 emerges and scores some excellent early results. As top players tend to copy other top players' success, N11 surges in popularity, becoming three times as common as the next highest N10, with a dominant 75% win rate to go along.

The Great N12 Shift (2008-2013): 2...P10! reveals a gap in the armor of N11, scoring a 35% win rate in master games with victories over dein, spavacz, brf, zoeyk, nosovs, and many others. A novelty, N12, emerges as a safer (perhaps because less analyzed) alternative, boasting an 80% win rate.

The Dark Ages (2014-present): Most top players are retired or semi-retired. N11 and N12 remain popular among masters (>2200 rating), with N12 retaining its best-in-class win rate at 87.5% despite extensive top-player analysis.

In recent years, some masters have trotted out K13, perhaps as a surprise move, or perhaps preferring its simplicity to the murky waters of 1 K10 N8 2 N12 M10!?


K10,N8,N12,M10


But I suspect that K13 might have its own Achilles' heel in the form of 2...M9!, which can be seen in my game from the 2023 Pente Masters tournament:



I hereby throw down the gauntlet and challenge any masters who still read this forum (zoey? watsu?) to respond: who is winning after 2...M9?

-Karl W

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.

nedhall17

Posts: 43
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 57
Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Jul 28, 2023, 7:40 PM

Did you want to invite anyone to respond, Karl, or just the "masters"?



karlw

Posts: 968
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Jul 28, 2023, 8:53 PM

The gauntlet has been thrown down to the masters, but I encourage anyone with a reasoned take to weigh in.

Also, your sustained 2300+ rating and tournament performance qualifies you as master beyond a doubt.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
nedhall17

Posts: 43
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 57
Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Jul 28, 2023, 9:42 PM

That's kind of you! Anyway, it's a great question. Fascinating how little explored this is in the DB. Will noodle away and report back if anything interesting emerges from said noodling....

zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 2, 2023, 1:17 AM

Bold posture Karl.
What if white plays with concept of adzi. Goes J10 on 4th.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
karlw

Posts: 968
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 2, 2023, 3:58 PM

Then after 4...M8, I believe the position is unclear. I think you may agree that all continuations for p1 lose except possibly 5 O7 M9 6 M7, which has two games in the db. Lupulo beat mmammel with 6...K9 (which I believe is best), but I believe mammel's response 7...M12 is inaccurate. After 7 N7, we have an interesting game ahead.




It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
nedhall17

Posts: 43
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 57
Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 3, 2023, 12:50 AM

Correct me if you think this is wrong, but it looks like 7...M12 is losing for black here.

zoeyk

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Age: 45
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Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 4, 2023, 12:25 AM

No, 6. M11 Would had been my move.

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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 4, 2023, 2:39 PM

No other 3rds for white yet that i like in the n8 k13 opening vs draw attack. Ill keep looking.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Aug 16, 2023, 3:52 AM


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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 4, 2023, 2:47 PM

Also, I do not use N12 much, as it is too easy to use. One can't really be a master and rely on N12 to win.

K13 wins. But requires thought and understanding, and is less main stream. which is why I like it. Just my opinion any how.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 6, 2023, 12:53 AM

But, yes Ned, I believe you are correct

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zoeyk

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Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 9, 2023, 2:02 AM

At this point I'm just dying to hear karls response.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
mumix

Posts: 44
Registered: Jul 11, 2020
Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 12, 2023, 5:57 AM

lol funny, i was tired of using N12 so i started using k13 just to try something new... i think i actually influenced nedhall to use it after i used it so many times against richard and then some against ned. Sorry Ned, i cost you the championship against Karl!

nedhall17

Posts: 43
Registered: Sep 25, 2021
From: Boston
Age: 57
Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 12, 2023, 9:14 PM

I accept full responsibility!

zoeyk

Posts: 2,220
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Age: 45
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Re: Who is winning after 1 K10 N8 2 K13 M9?
Posted: Aug 13, 2023, 2:34 AM

At least Ned didnt play it safe. I too played my white risky in the last tourney I was in. Its how a master shows off. Not taking the easy documented route. K13 does win tho for the record imho. And, there will always be another championship. Everyone knows Ned is a solid player. And karl is getting too excited with his gauntlet thingy. Next time karl should bar me from posting solutions to posts like this lol.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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