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Topic: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Replies: 41   Views: 78,562   Pages: 3   Last Post: Apr 22, 2019, 11:08 PM by: zoeyk

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zoeyk

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 10:36 AM

I don't know what you mean by solved. Many ways to win.
I mean solved as in, the mystery of does p1s k10 have sure win in perfect play? The answer is yes. That, for me, is solved.
The whole thing of which line is more perfect than others is IMHO Symantec's, and subjective. Its like, which taco is better?,.. I don't care just give me the damn taco.... And a beer.

~z

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare

zoeyk

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 11:24 AM

I keep reading something about K11. And j9 or something?? But I have no idea which line it's related too. Totally lost and too lazy to read this whole thread at the moment to find out. but if you guys can post the line you are debating I can maybe offer my 2 cents on it. Thanks.

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watsu

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Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 11:51 AM

1. K10 L9 2. J9 K11

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 12:05 PM

J9?? So not using tourney rules? I'm lost lol. Surely that is a typo. We are talking pente right?

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watsu

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 12:07 PM

2. J7, my bad, it's early AM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 12:25 PM

Not sure who I direct this question to, but why J7???? did someone come to the belief that N10 is scary to use now and J7 is the easy way to avoid some novelty?

I've been gone for several years. Karl today is using non standard white 2nds too. Not sure what I have missed in my absence, but I think switching P1s seconds is running from a small solvable bump in the road. I would be more interested to see the feared novelties that led you to resort to these moves. So I can have a crack at solving them.
Changing thirds is normal. The standard seconds are fine I believe.

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zoeyk

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 12:44 PM

Back to the J7 move. And the K11. I would not want to be P1 in a rated live game. I'm not saying P1 can't win. But, P1 must like a challenge to do that move.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
haijinx

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 1:50 PM

Good morning everybody...

I had a packed non-pente day yesterday, so when I saw zoey's first comment and it didn't match the original post, I decided to go to bed and let this sort itself out in the morning.

Thanks, karlw for you comment.

Besides pente not actually being solved, one of my points here is that if P1 has enough initiative to force win from 1. K10, then P1 most likely has more than one way to win. Indeed, zoey is one person I quote on this and zoey added:

Many ways to win.

I'd go on...if N10 did win with "perfect play", the force win line probably would have been found by now. Instead, if the force win for P1 exists, it's probably a procedure that by definition allows for multiple routes to win based on P2's play.

I'm not saying J7 is one such route, I am saying that Pente opening practice had J7 as busted by J9 and that it was wrong. J9 actually loses to proper play from P1 rather easily. At the time I posted this, J9 was the mainline by thousands of games at every level of play.

This makes me think there are many such lines improperly written off and that the hither to ungraspable P1 force win is actually in those shadows.

zoey also wrote:

Back to the J7 move. And the K11. I would not want to be P1 in a rated live game. I'm not saying P1 can't win. But, P1 must like a challenge to do that move.

This is one item zoey missed in my initial post:

FWIW, I think P2's best chances are with 2...K11. zoeyk, for example, is 14-0 as P2 at that point. I think P1 has an edge still, but the database doesn't and it requires a different style of play from P1.

And yes, I've been told that J7 is non-standard and I will eventually switch. There is an expectation that K11 will be fleshed out to make me. We will see...

karlw

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 6:57 PM

@zoeyk:

I bristle at the suggestion that playing "non-standard" lines is somehow inferior or morally wrong. It's that kind of dogmatic thinking that keeps people from trying new openings, which is the only thing that can keep pente alive and fresh. Also, there are dozens of cases in pente (and of course, chess) where the "standard" line is eventually proven to be inferior or even losing. On this note, I encourage you to take the time to study K7 vs. N10 as responses to K9.

Against N10 Black has many choices of a 2nd move, all of which are almost certainly losing, but all of which can make White work very hard, and all of which offer plenty of opportunities for White to play a natural-looking move that is actually losing. Such options are J11, L11, M9, N9, L8, M8, M7, and probably more.

Against K7, the symmetry of the board cuts Black's choices in half. The only moves that I can find that allow Black to fight are L11, M11, M9, and maybe one or two others that I'm keeping mum about for now. Now here's the problem: as far I as I can tell after hours of studying, L11 is destroyed by M9, M11 is destroyed by L10, and M9 is destroyed by L9. If White finds a few fairly obvious follow-up moves, Black is dead in the water--no counterplay.

Now I would love for you to put your formidable pente skills to good work and find P2 responses to K7 that put up more of a fight than watsu and I have been able to. In fact I'm nearly positive you can do it if you want: you see the game differently than either watsu or I do. To do so would be doing the pente community a great service. If you want, I can pm you the lines I am currently exploring with cautious optimism.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
zoeyk

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 8:03 PM

Perhaps you misunderstanding me. When changing a p1 second, I judge the motivation. If its just to have fun (alive and fresh as you say), or because it seems more proficient, or to trick players into copying you so you can then exploit them, or to not show solution to your P2 which they try to use on you to probe for your solution..then OK. But if its to run from a mid game or end game novelty, then I consider this a cowardly quiter's attitude. as nosovs once said, "Its very important to show fighting spirit".
Sure, win Is win. But if win in retreating position with tail between legs, Is less street cred so to speak, in my opinion. Nosovs never backed off of p1 that others feared to use. He showed instead the elegant change we blindly missed. Fear can blind you from simple solution.

Changing a 3rd is different. 3rds can be wrong, or not proficient. But the standard 2nds do have sure win. If too much struggle then adjust 3rd or beyond. Just saying how I see it. You are all free to disagree.


as to your lines, we can look on live table.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 8:26 PM

As to alive and fresh... This is like breaking something on purpose simply so you can fix it again. I mean, OK, you gotta do what you gotta do, if you really think standard seconds have no current novelties to solve, or unknown novelties hiding in wait to be discovered. What ever floats your boat.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: K10: The Supreme Overseer
Posted: Apr 22, 2019, 11:08 PM

K7 is fine, just don't use for the wrong reason I think.
As to chess lines being proven wrong. I'm not talking about lines. P1's second move is not a line. Its not even a complete opening. Opening is not done until right before the first forcing move is made. which marks the mid game, or, end game if consecutive forces continue to the finish of course.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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