Posts:
4
Registered:
Jun 15, 2002
From:
Colorado
Age:
43
New Pente Variant?
Posted:
Oct 5, 2011, 3:15 AM
A couple of posts in the forums got me thinking about the game and an idea surfaced for a new variant.
The post about why pente wasn't as popular as chess an go made me think about all the good and bad of our game compared to those king of games. Pente is fast to learn, fun to play and takes some study to get good. Unfortunately when you get good you see the biggest flaw in the game. Player one advantage is just to big. I'm not even close to the level of the top players in the world and yet I can now win most of the time(turn-based) as white against them. You don't see experts beating pros in chess or go with first move at the rate you see in pente. The variants we have now try to address this advantage but most players don't play them for different reasons.
The second post was about what was best for player 2 in regard to openings (near, mid, far). I tossed far openings out as a consideration because as white I would just play the other direction and isolate black's stone. This might just be personal choice but it got me thinking what if that wasn't an option. What if white was restricted in what direction expansion was available.
I then got my idea that could limit whites advantage without complicating the game. White's first move can be anywhere on the board but black has the option of switching sides right then or playing on. If white plays to the center then black switches and has an easy win but if white plays to A1 then he plays on with black for the win. We use the edge of the board or two edges to limit the advantage of going first. A center stone has the ability to be part of a pente five ways on both diagonals and five ways on the vertical and horizontal for 20 total. A1 stone has three, B2 has six, A10 has 8 and so on. Players would have to experiment to find the best balance point for them. I haven't spent a lot of time playing the computer this way but I've been encouraged with my results.
I think this could open up lots of new areas to explore in pente and would be an easy intro for new players. Let me know what you think good or bad but more importantly how you might improve the variant. A name would be good to if people like the idea.
Posts:
4
Registered:
Jun 15, 2002
From:
Colorado
Age:
43
Re: New Pente Variant?
Posted:
Oct 13, 2011, 4:42 AM
The only way it is like D-Pente is that a swap is possible. D-pente lets white place four stones before the potential swap and they start in the center. At this point white has already significantly directed the direction of the game. A good understanding of the game is required it evaluate the position and part of white's advantage is the understanding of the setup. In this new variation only one stone is placed before a potential swap and it would be placed near the edge of the board. A whole new set of opening ideas would be developed as players would have to contend with the edge of the board on one side and their opponent on the other. The first player advantage is greatly reduced and the rule set is too. Take Mark Mammel's pente program turn of the tournament rule and try a few games playing both sides from the corner to get an idea how it plays. Since this hasn't gotten much attention I'm just going to call it swap pente for now.
Posts:
186
Registered:
Aug 15, 2003
From:
Krakow / Poland Home page
Re: New Pente Variant?
Posted:
Oct 14, 2011, 11:49 PM
>In this new variation only one stone is placed before a potential swap and it would be placed near the edge of the board.
i have to disagree. i played a lot (thousands) of swap five in line games, where rules of this variant are similar to what you are proposing (the difference is that the first player puts all first 3 stones and then second player decides to swap or not). from my experience i know that, when 2 first stones were placed in the center of the board, playing 3rd one (second white) closer to the edge than the lines: 5, 15, e or p results in a quick loose. i believe the same applies to pente, if you put your white stone too far your opp will simply take blacks and make triangle (or however it is called) before you will be able to prepare any attack with, lets say, stones like k10 and f5. all the balanced openings after some time will end with second white stone being played in the area between lines 6, 14, f and o. other possibilities may work only if you surprise your opp, which can happen- same as you can surprise your opp right now playing with black stones. my conclusion is, that your swap variant might be really good (im not enthusiast of d-pente), but it will be closer to the pente we know right now, than you are expecting.
Posts:
4
Registered:
Jun 15, 2002
From:
Colorado
Age:
43
Re: New Pente Variant?
Posted:
Oct 16, 2011, 12:38 AM
I know s3v3n is a good player but to disagree on that point is to miss the whole point of the variant and lets me know I need to be more clear.
I think we all can agree that basic pente has a huge first player advantage.
The tournament rule and g-pente limit that advantage by restricting the shapes white can make in the first moves.
D-pente s-pente and the rule set s3v3n mentioned try to limit the advantage by forming shapes that are close to equal.
As s3v3n correctly points out a move to the edge is a bad move. In swap pente that is the balance to the first move advantage. If player one plays an optimal move to the center then player two swaps and has essentially first move advantage with no restrictions. If player one makes the worst move to the corner then player two just plays far away and has a big lead. The trick is to find a balance point move. Player ones job is to find a move just bad enough that he doesn't care if player two swaps or not.
Swap pente uses a lack of mobility or expandability to even out the first move advantage. In chess a knight in the center of the board is far stronger than one in the corner and a stone near the edge of the board in pente is weaker than one in the center discounting other factors.
I can see the first move being decided by a players style. I f someone likes cramped positions then he might play closer to the edge expecting to keep white and a good defensive player might play farther away hoping for the swap.
This variant is very simple to play or teach and makes the first move mean something. It should make it easier for the better player to win with either color. I hope this clears up any misconceptions I may of inadvertently introduced.
Posts:
186
Registered:
Aug 15, 2003
From:
Krakow / Poland Home page
Re: New Pente Variant?
Posted:
Oct 16, 2011, 3:15 PM
my bad, i totally misunderstood rules, you are proposing, i guess because i never heard about swap rules when only 1 stone is on the board- usually there are 3 (swap five in line), 4 (d-pente), 5 (swap 2 five in line) stones on the board when color swap can be done. that makes my previous post totally off topic ..
