Posts:
111
Registered:
Dec 16, 2001
From:
cottage grove, oregon Home page
How do formations work?
Posted:
Mar 27, 2011, 1:27 AM
P2 stones are included in these diagrams in order to confuse the wicked Does anyone know which of these p1 formations is stongest? That is, in order to determine this, for a novice like me, I would go about this by selecting games out of the database here and determining whether there might be any variance as to percentages of wins there might be per formation. I would think that there are some better players that might have figured this out, unless perhaps all formations are pretty much equal in strength depending of course on optimal countering by p2.
Re: How do formations work?
Posted:
Mar 27, 2011, 3:44 AM
Which is strongest? Hmmmm. Well, if they are unblocked, then all three of the 3-stone triangles are equally strong, since they will force the win if P1 has stone in hand.
But what if P1 doesn't have stone in hand? Which is to say, how well does a formation do vs the opponent's stones. And that depends on how the opening has played out thus far. In your third example, if P2 simply puts his third stone two spaces to the left of his top stone, then P1 might start crying for mommy. In the other two examples it looks at first blush like P2 might be doing the crying.
So the question then becomes how do you play your second stone as P1? Do you play something like K7 or J7 instead, noting that both can lead to several different wonderful 3-stone triangles? And that second move choice all depends on what P2's first move is.
Of course, many games, perhaps most games, you don't get to play triangle vs triangle on your first three moves. Instead you are playing an interlocking mess of some sort, in which case each or your opponent's stones are simultaneously assets and liabilities for her.
An example of asset vs liability is K10 and M11 for white combined with L11 for black. If black can't come up with something good (there are always other stones on the board with the tournament rule for this formation), then she will be in deep trouble very quickly precisely because of that stone of hers.
The strongest 3-stone triangle of all if K10, K8, M8 (anywhere on the board). The reason for that is because it has so many ways to win, and it is so incredibly hard to block because of that flexibility. Of course you can't get that triangle in three moves as P1 with the tournament rule.
So basically I said a lot and didn't answer the question that you perhaps thought you asked. Instead, perhaps you learned that you were asking the wrong question....
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: How do formations work?
Posted:
Mar 29, 2011, 5:39 PM
Your question about using formations in the opening is quite complex. This is because opening theory is the most advanced part of the game. As you become better at choosing sound moves earlier in the game, you become a stronger player. This is the natural order of development for players moving from novice to intermediate to expert -- that is, becoming better earlier and earlier in the game.
In order to take full advantage of using shapes and "formations" in the opening, you need to spend a little time during analysis thinking about how these shapes work. What are their strengths and weaknesses? How many ways can they force a victory by design (with no opponent's stones nearby), and what are they? How can they be used to force a capture depending on where a target opponent's stone might be located in relation to your shape? How can they be effectively blocked or countered by the opponent?
Once you sort of know what they can do and how they work, the trick will be to choose the correct one during a game for the given situation (or when to do something else entirely). The thought process for doing this is complicated, but basically you need to look carefully at where your opponent's stones are located, then you picture the shape that you are thinking about making with your next move. Run through the basic forcing lines and capture forcing situations that might be created. Now you need to try to figure out if any move exists for your opponent's next move that will get in the way of your shape's momentum while simultaneously creating a counter-threat which may cause you to lose the initiative down the road. If such a problem exists, you may want to try another shape or another tactic instead.
There are other threads which discuss and categorize various shapes that P1 can create. A few of these include "The L", "The Hat", "The Big T", "The Little t", and so on...
The L
The Hat
The Big T
The Little t
Of course, shapes such as the Big T or the Little t will not come into play in the early opening unless you choose to play your second move off-axis, which is a whole seperate debate within opening theory which would get off the subject. But briefly, you would need to determine WHEN it is wise to move off-axis (if ever), then be able to choose WHICH off-axis move to make (because often times some are winning and some are losing), then you need to respond with the correct shape on your 3rd move depending on the given, rather complex situation (Big T, Little t or even something else). The complications arising throughout this process is one of the motivations behind the creation of the rather advanced Pente variation, G-Pente.
If you play your second move on-axis, and only 2 spaces away (which is the most standard move), you are left with only two basic shapes to create on your 3rd move -- The L and The Hat. There are 4 of each for a total of 8 possibilities, which often are all different depending on your opponent's stones.
Personally (again, debatable), I consider The L to be the superior shape over The Hat by design. This is because in addition to the threats created by the shape as a whole, it also contains the strongest Potential -- a vertical or horizontal one-gapper.
As an aside, vertical or horizontal trias are stronger than diagonal trias for several reasons which could be left for a seperate thread...
-------- The L --------
There are a few threats created by The L. Given the one drawn above, a common continuation begins with 4. L10 and then 5. M11. If the opponent captures, you can now force a recapture with 6. O13 and usually there is an obvious victory from forcing moves from there. If instead your opponent blocks at O13 there is still plenty of continuation, such as possibly creating the winning "H" formation:
The other common continuation involves playing the tight tria and then to M10 instead of L10:
There are other scenarios as well including an extention to N9 or N8 followed by M10 or L10.
A third possibility, albeit a much less desirable one is to begin with the broken tria off the strong Potential:
In this case, the position has turned into more of a "Hat" position with some added stones and a sacrificed capture.
The two other possibilities are to use the Strong potential to set up a capture threat -- or to simply play a building move:
It's important to remember that both of these options are "slower" 4th moves, meaning, if your opponent is able to respond with a sequence of forcing moves you have lost the initiative.
Well, your skilled opponent isn't going to just sit there and let you easily win with a simple L shape now is he? What will he do to try to stop you?
To defend against The L, at some point you are going to need to block the long side. In our example here, blocking at J10, L10, M10 or O10 will (usually) be required at some point soon to prevent the victory by forcing moves. It is important to understand that blocking the short side is NOT good enough!
Example:
BUT, what happens if the long side was blocked instead?
Now white has a serious problem. Black was able to block the long side, which stalls the momentum created by this shape (there are no desirable forcing move continuations from here) and simultaneously create a counter threat with this same move. White must now go on the defensive with a move such as 4. J9 and it's a scramble from there.
Alternatively, what if black sets up to block the long side on his 4th move instead? White must play along this long side eventually to realize this shape's chances for a victory by forcing moves. So, try setting yourself up to block and counter-attack at the same time:
Now what? If white continues with 4. L10? then black responds with 4 ... J10! and immediately steals the initiative. Again, white will be forced to play more defensively and a scramble for initiative begins.
These are the sorts of problems you need to consider when choosing your 3rd move. In this case, creating the L shape at 3. N12 was probably not the strongest option because of these above possibilities. You need to be able to recognize this and find a better alternative. In fact, the whole concept of the 2 ... J8 move is to try to set up for blocking the long side of a variety of L shapes and Hat shapes at either J10 or L10 later on in the opening in order to cause problems for white. This is the sort of "plan" that a skilled Player 2 will have in mind before the game even begins.
......
This post is to long to go into a similar breakdown of The Hat shape, but this is a basic idea of what all players should take the time to think about during analysis for all of the common shapes that can come up in the opening.
Posts:
111
Registered:
Dec 16, 2001
From:
cottage grove, oregon Home page
Re: How do formations work?
Posted:
May 11, 2011, 6:39 PM
Thanks for the extended explanations on this up2ng and everyone who replied.
My graphics card went out on my new hp laptop shortly after I bought it and then this site went down for another week so I guess I lost the initiative on this post.
My p2 positions shown here were irrelevant to the p1 formations so guess I shouldn't have included them.
I would be interested in playing d or g pente more when I get the time. I also like the idea of exploring starting points on some games beyond 3rd or 4th moves in.
One of my reasons for starting this post was to see if any seasoned players might reveal any tricks or a preference for formations to build beyond but in perspective to the opposite players stone placements, or offer any clues that they may be hiding. Up2ng's review on formations I think would be good to print out, review and practice.
