I can't see what up2ng sent you, and I don't remember what we went over in which session.
However, in your "game 3", if black extends his tria to H11 on move 10, before playing M10, it clobbers our line. Unless there is an improvement.
Anyway, Zoey's line where white simply makes the double tria is an elegant way to win, where virtually each black possibility of defense opens up a different way for white to win.
I had to figure out where I went wrong in typing up that last board. It's now viewable. See whether or not it matches what you are thinking of. I don't think I've seen the Zk line you mention yet. No doubt there are several possibilities for a white win, based on what we saw... I tried making the double tria against Up2ng and it seemed to lose to caps unless you are talking about a different position than the one I am, of course.
Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 22, 2010 2:41 PM
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted:
Apr 23, 2010, 12:29 AM
Note that the interesting games zoey just showed result from an alternate 5th move of blocking the tria on the high side instead of what was actually played against rollie.
Hopefully zoey has saved and can also post an example of how he beats the line which was actually played but with watsu's improvement of 7 ... L11
In the other board watsu just posted based on a note I sent him, I was referring to the fact that the earlier extension to H11 allows black to counter 17. P11 with 17 ... L11 (preventing white's winning extension to L11 shown earlier). However, after looking at the board this probably just delays the inevitable as black is still in capture trouble and on the defensive. Not sure, try it out and see what sort of endgame you come up with.
Note, even if this turns out to win for black, zoey has already come up with an alternate win as I mentioned above.
Posts:
2,220
Registered:
Mar 4, 2007
From:
San Francisco
Age:
45 Home page
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted:
Apr 23, 2010, 4:22 AM
well, looky here, happyj0 was right. i did do this white back in the day. 2007 when i was still a rookie squaring off against karlw when he was in his prime. as u can see i botched the end game pretty good here .
i think i already pointed out what the P1 mistake was in this line in an earlier post.
M9 was the correct move for P1 on the 12th move. i think i had pointed out that the capture P1 does here was not as good looking a move, and karlw played it well as P2 i think, given my weaker choice at the time.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Wow that is interesting! Even though your 3rd, 4th and 5th were played in a different order in this one it turned into the exact same line all the way to the 10th where karl used one of the other defensive options that we considered earlier in this thread.
12 M9 does seem strong since it opens up a few possibilities that cannot all be defended by black and at the same time defends against black's threats, getting inbetween that diagonal potential.
I don't mind your choice of 12 H11 though. Although it is not a forcing move, it does cause black to be in a position where he has absolutely nothing to build off of and so initiative should not be lost. It gains another capture in the process (starting to look for a win by captures from here), and now black has to play a very defensive move in response, putting the ball back in your court.
You could have tried 13. M9 after his defensive choice at M11, but again your choice of 13. L10 seems fine and I'm not sure why white ended up losing from there. This endgame, especially the very last disasterous move at L6, looks suspiciously like time-trouble.
Although white is in a bit of capture trouble in this position, is there really no 16th move that works? Considering black has absolutely no threats besides sneaking in a win by captures after a mistake by white. I bet if some of us looked at this for a few minutes we could find a nice 16th move that works -- again this was most likely a time-trouble related loss.
Up2ng- "allows black to counter 17. P11 with 17 ... L11 " I looked at this line some and can't see any way for p2 to avoid a loss if p1 plays correctly. I see p1's line as 18.M11 P11 19. L14* N12 20. H13 looks to win no matter what p2 decides to do from that point... If instead of N12, p2 plays M12* @ 19, p1 plays L12, opens the four on the 11 line with one or the other available caps and gets a fifth cap on the next move @ J9. That's how I read it anyway...
if p2 plays N8 instead of N12... p1 can counter with p13
Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 23, 2010 8:57 PM
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted:
Apr 24, 2010, 2:09 AM
Hi zoeyk, up2ng, watsu, happyio, and others,
All of your analysis is humbling, and it is heart-warming to see so much activity concerning a game I'm involved in again. Thank you.
Apologies for not contributing more. My time is consumed lately as a professional game designer at RandomGT. We just recently finished designing the "NCIS: The Boardgame" for CBS/Pressman, and now I'm deep into a new CCG project.
I would like to slip back into making some contribution to the analysis of this game, so I suggest a slow-game replay with zoeyk, beginning in any position you desire. We can play a move every day or so. Everyone else feel free to collaborate with zoeyk. Suggest any one new move for P2 and we'll go from there, one move at a time.
For example, if zoeyk desires to go with the last position posted, we can start with your new 10) ... N13. If that is the starting position that you would like to go with, then my reply is:
11) H11* (as opposed to your currently suggested 11) J9
In other words, the current position is the following, with it your move:
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted:
Apr 24, 2010, 2:17 AM
Hey watsu, I think you're generally correct on that last endgame -- the key being that white never played the early extension to N8 as occurred while we were looking at it at the time -- this extra stone would allow black to win by captures with my new 17th, but in this spot, without the extension, black just has no way to force the 5th capture. I'm not sure exactly where you were heading with 20. J14, but I would bet that there's some way for white to eek out 5 captures before black with this or some other move 20.
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted:
Apr 24, 2010, 2:24 AM
Rollie, I'm excited to see that you are interested in participating and enjoy analysis!
At this point I think we might have played out all reasonable alternatives for black starting with about the 5th move, and determined that white should win with this opening no matter what black tries. But we could still follow through on your suggestion and try a few more options.
By the way, if you are interested in posting board or game positions to view, read up on how to do it here:
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted:
Apr 24, 2010, 2:28 AM
Right, I saw that that extension fouled things up... J14 threatens a cap which p2 cant protect against and it takes away p2's ability to cap if it is allowed to happen.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted:
Apr 24, 2010, 2:32 AM
Yes, I'd say probably the only way p2 would have a prayer on this line against a top level opponent would be in a timed game, where the clock could beat the opponent. However, in that situation, I think it would be a nice trapping line for p2 with all kinds of opportunities for error by p1. I think I speak for many players when I second up2ng's sentiment that it's great to see you back involved with Pente and game analysis to whatever extent you have the time and juice for, Rollie!
Message was edited by: watsu at Apr 23, 2010 8:33 PM
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: rollie tesh is browsing pente.org?
Posted:
Apr 24, 2010, 2:35 AM
Well I feel like I'm hogging the forum a bit with so many posts in a row, haha.
H11* without first playing J9 is an interesting option in response to N13 there. I think I suggested this possibility briefly along the way somewhere in this thread also.
Do you like this even better than 11. M9 for white?
One interesting option your choice leaves open if black responds defensively with something like M11 (see zoeyk vs. karlw posted above) is that white can now play H8 and threatening the H-line, etc.
It will be interesting to see if zoey can come up with something decent for black from there.
