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Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
May 29, 2010, 3:09 AM
pad their stats haha.
yea, i agree with watsu. nosovs can be surpassed, not by skill exceeding his, but by using the new system. but there just hasn't been enough people playing rated to supply the needed points currency to achieve this. i think its coincidental that rated play has slowed down around the same time of the system being implemented. the top players just basically got burned out around the same time.... top players seemed to had served as an attracting force that stimulated population and rated motions.
all though we might have past the hey day now. its possible pente might have its 3rd coming in the future. new masters may emerge at some point, revitalizing the energy it had before. although,... the data base will fight against this possibility. its constant expansion slowly squeezes out pente's potential of resurrecting.
at some point i might recommend suppressing the later half of the data bases games. perhaps not forever, but maybe seal it off for a 5 to 10 year duration. or,.. make the data base a feature that has to be paid for on a monthly basis to detour players from opening Pandora's box.
geez, i guess i sound like im taking s3v3n's side from another thread...hmm
zoeyk
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
May 29, 2010, 10:21 PM
I am new to this on line pente site and love it!! I did not know it existed and have not played for many years since I was in college at OSUmany moons ago and used to go to the Hideaway after rugby practice and have some great pizza!!!
All I can say is I do not know Nosovs but can tell im that there is no greater respect that a peer group can bestow on someone than speaking about, studying and alayzing thier games!!!
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Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
May 30, 2010, 2:40 AM
Zoey - or,.. make the data base a feature that has to be paid for on a monthly basis . . .
Or better yet, let worthy players get paid for players accessing their games.
It might take some doing to figure this out of course and you might pay on a sliding scale according to players rating. There are always 2 players per game also so losing opponent should get paid something also. And at some point players will not be around anymore.
I'm not into figuring it out however at present and maybe no one else is either. Guess thats why I never mentioned this before, but if anyone gets paid it should be the player ('s games) accessed.
It just ain't fair though that players access accomplished player's games (players doing all the work) and top rated players not get paid for it. Waaaaah!
Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
May 30, 2010, 4:19 PM
zoey darling...
Prior to Set-Based Rating (SB) your arguments hinged on the combination of Nosovs being so close to perfect play that it left little room to squeeze in above him, and the limitations of the rating system.
You argued for the introduction of SBR from a platform of 'fairness'. But, by speculating about ways in which one might take advantage of the new system to 'surpass' Nosovs, you risk betraying its raison detre.
The database. I totally disagree about hiding the database. This basically amounts to censorship, and worse than this, it is like advocating 'fixing' the game as if to say that it is broken by the existance of the database. I get that you don't want all your openings stored for everyone to see, particularly other reds. However, the vast majority of players will never master the game anyway, and for them the database IMO is a casual curiosity - a resource to dabble with - and is not for most people the keys to the inner sanctum because most of us don't have the time or the inclination to study it that much. People do however use it and value it, and taking that away would be to their detriment. Your suggestion protects the interests of the devoted few who aspire to master the game and don't want their trade secrets publicized, but this comes at a cost to everyone else. I ask you though, where would you have been if the database had not been available to you?
I also disagree with gaylen on charging money for using the db. This sends the wrong message entirely I think.
If you want to protect your intellectual property, what about lobbying dweebo for a checkbox on your user profile that excludes your games from the database? So, it requires both players to give the green light or nothing is stored.
Lastly, I ask the following question with regards to the legitimate surpassing of Nosovs. Is it possible do you think, that Nosovs could get better than he is now by some small amount? Can he improve just enough that he will win just one more P2 game in every 50 games played? If you answer yes to this question, then it means that someone (in this case Nosovs) could be better than him. If he can be better than he is now, then surely someone else can? Otherwise you are saying that he has reached a level that is impossible to improve upon.
~Alison
Message was edited by: alisontate at May 30, 2010 9:13 PM
Message was edited by: alisontate at May 31, 2010 9:31 AM
Message was edited by: alisontate at Jun 1, 2010 10:18 AM
Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
Jun 1, 2010, 4:28 PM
OK I think I'm done editing it. Sometimes I read things I have written a few days later and say Yikes! did I really say that?! Sorry, but sometimes I get a bit too passionate on some things and use overly strong language. My edits have just been to temper it somewhat. I hope you understand.
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Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
Jun 2, 2010, 4:15 AM
Anti-database comments in this and other threads are completely silly.
First, arguments have been made that the database is somehow bad for Pente. Nothing could be further from the truth, and in fact, the exact opposite is easily observable. The database has been an excellent tool which has been a major factor in the online resurgence of the game over the past decade. It has increased interest in the game for many players and has provided a top-notch learning tool for many players also, leading to a much greater quantity AND quality of players with a longer retention rate.
Any efforts to limit information getting into the database or to limit access to information already in the database would be totally contrary to the point of the whole project. Fortunately, I know for a fact that Dweebo would never entertain any ideas like this -- he has very specific philosophies which led to an amazing, ahead-of-its-time vision for a vast game database for Pente. He put a tremendous amount of development time and effort into that aspect of this site, which is one of its most important features.
In fact, if he ever sets aside any more significant amounts of time for more development, I would imagine that we would see the exact opposite approach -- finding ways to get MORE information into the database, such as automatically importing Brainking games, user input of their own over-the-board games, and so on ... AND refining the database itself to make sure that games are not lost during searches (I have many examples where I'm convinced that I have played certain exact positions at least a half-dozen times in rated games and yet I won't be listed at all in that searched position, for example), and providing MORE searching and filtering options to be able to search for exactly what you are looking for in an even more user friendly way. I will welcome all such developments since these would all be good for all individual players and good for the game as a whole.
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Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
Jun 4, 2010, 2:02 PM
zoey darling...
Prior to Set-Based Rating (SB) your arguments hinged on the combination of Nosovs being so close to perfect play that it left little room to squeeze in above him, and the limitations of the rating system.
There is a difference between, surpassing nosovs skill level, and surpassing nosovs rating. this is important to understand.
You argued for the introduction of SBR from a platform of 'fairness'. But, by speculating about ways in which one might take advantage of the new system to 'surpass' Nosovs, you risk betraying its raison detre.
no, it does not betray its raison detre (aka - reason for being). those are two separate issues. if it happened that i for example surpassed his rating, it would only show that he isn't active enough to keep up. SBR is a very good system for us. to judge a players true strength you can not just view rating. you must weigh other variables as well. how many strong players have they swept? how many strong players swept them? what is the ratio of opponents they play of strong vs mid vs weak players. what are the quality of his/her moves.
The database. I totally disagree about hiding the database. This basically amounts to censorship, and worse than this, it is like advocating 'fixing' the game as if to say that it is broken by the existence of the database.
broken? hmm not sure ide say broken, but i'll say the game is not what it was compared to a few years back. thats a fact that the top players all know very well.
I get that you don't want all your openings stored for everyone to see, particularly other reds.
i don't care if any players see my moves. if i don't want it seen i keep the line secret like a derringer hiding in my sock until ready to cash in. a hidden throw away weapon so to speak. lines have a short life span. like in gambling, you win some and pull out while your ahead. the scavengers then pick it up and try to recycle any potential it might still retain. i just continue endlessly searching for the next new line to try. i'll say it has become increasingly difficult to find lines. i have been finding some,.. but no where near to the volume i used to discover on a per month average.
However, the vast majority of players will never master the game anyway, and for them the database IMO is a casual curiosity - a resource to dabble with - and is not for most people the keys to the inner sanctum because most of us don't have the time or the inclination to study it that much.
i am not talking about average players... i am talking about top players,.. in turn based, the top players awareness/memories, and data base in live rated, the top players awareness/memories.
the top players some times share secrets with other top players of either their own moves, or other players moves they discovered while doing recon at either brainking or pente.org or any pente site. this is a filtering system players don't see when they open the data base. it is something that players in a certain circle hear about sometimes. the data base is full of garbage, sure.... but not when you know how to read it.. and not when you are aware of modern up to date cutting edge stuff that hasn't hit the data base yet.
People do however use it and value it, and taking that away would be to their detriment. Your suggestion protects the interests of the devoted few who aspire to master the game and don't want their trade secrets publicized, but this comes at a cost to everyone else. I ask you though, where would you have been if the database had not been available to you?
again, i am not concerned about players of a lower weight class having the data base, believe it or not i actually encourage them to study,... i tell them to study. they are not a threat at that stage, and developing more top players to replenish the ranks as they retire is important IMO. yes the data base was needed in my development, keep in mind it was not the only key reason in my development. masters teaching me, and playing many games was important too... and passion to excel is important. but there comes a point where the data base becomes a double edged sword when its presence reaches a extreme situation. you are definitely breaking eggs to eat this omolette.
I also disagree with gaylen on charging money for using the db. This sends the wrong message entirely I think.
If you want to protect your intellectual property, what about lobbying dweebo for a checkbox on your user profile that excludes your games from the database? So, it requires both players to give the green light or nothing is stored.
interesting ideas, of which i am not prepared to support at this time, and am not really ready to comment on one way or the other.
Lastly, I ask the following question with regards to the legitimate surpassing of Nosovs. Is it possible do you think, that Nosovs could get better than he is now by some small amount? Can he improve just enough that he will win just one more P2 game in every 50 games played? If you answer yes to this question, then it means that someone (in this case Nosovs) could be better than him. If he can be better than he is now, then surely someone else can? Otherwise you are saying that he has reached a level that is impossible to improve upon.
~Alison
ok,. i hope this can settle this puzzle that seems to plague you
nosovs makes mistakes, not often, very very rare. but i can show games he made mistakes in. even in games he won, he has made mistakes but the other player just didnt see it.
its so rare that he does this, that i will say that yes a player can surpass him, but not by much, and they would need to never make a mistake,.. ever,.. but this is not human, or maybe just very lucky. so lets just say that yes he can be surpassed,.. and No, no one ever will, even if it is possible.
you will not get a better answer than this i predict, so i hope it satisfies you.
added; there is a net work. that helps top players sometimes see things better that average players can not make heads or tails of when trying to read the data base.
there are clicks, such as; ILP - from Poland SPP - Brf's circle Pente.org - Top players that play here regularly and there are more study groups not listed..
there are the Lone Wolves, Rogue Players that stay to them selves, such as; Nosovs, Victor Barykin as some examples.
Then there are the Double Agents.. No examples will be listed for this group.
I wont say what i fall under,..
But i will say that line intel has been known to be traded/bartered, like currency.
these principles help to curculate superior knowledge.
Message was edited by: zoeyk at Jun 4, 2010 8:17 AM
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
Jun 4, 2010, 2:11 PM
One problem with the database is that quite a few "IDs" ... er people (perhaps) spend more time studying the database than they do playing pente on the site, "PENTE.org".
Does that mean that they would spend more time playing pente, if the database never became fully operational again? Who knows?
Can studying the database ever make someone fully the player they have the talent to eventually become? I doubt it.
Can innovative solutions come only out of studying and memorizing other people's solutions? I doubt it.
Can people invent things? I think so.
Are engineers asked to do things that have never been done before? I think so.
With no database, "creativity", around here, just may reacquaint itself with its more common meaning, creating new solutions to old pente problems, instead of just being used, "occasionally" to mean the same people "creating" new IDs periodically.
Is this an anti-database post? I don't think so, though I'm sure some people will interpret it that way.
I'm not really anti-database, since I believe those who rely on it more than they rely on their own creativity and thinking ability can only retard their own development, thus making it easier for Nosovsky to stay on top.
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Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
Jun 4, 2010, 2:38 PM
i study the data base alot, but ide like to think i am a creative player. (some moves are recycled, some are created, it just depends on the logic in a given position) i study the data base alot,.. but i also play alot too..
i don't think that removing the data base would promote more activity. but im not ruling it out either. interesting concept classy.
relying on the data base is what players do in early stages, like training wheels. once stronger it is only one tool in the tool box,... you develop more. some people look at the data base to copy moves,.. How Ever,.. some players look at the data base to figure out "What has Not been tried yet". thus a novelty move is born. this is creativity brought forth through searching the data base, to see what is not there, as opposed to what is there. there is a difference here, this is important to understand.
when players follow the data base in full faith like lemmings diving off a cliff,.. they are extremely easy to target and defeat,.. you just look at the whites they won with,.. try to find one they use repeatedly, and you look for a mistake they made in that P1 line they use,..
if they catch on to this type of trap, they might diverge with a radical tactical spur of the moment move, and if you are a strong tactical player, and they are just positional not tactical, then in this situation of them trying to dodge the suspected bullet, they actually give you the advantage. either way they are in trouble if you know what your doing.
or,. you look for a very strong early stage P2 opening they did not face yet,.. and they are helpless in that moment as well.
or if they recently lost (and this seems to be mid level player's tactic by the way) ,.. if they recently lost to someones P2, you can use that P2 on them, they will do a new path, thus allowing you a opportunity perhaps to trap them in a tactical position. how ever, top players always solve their mistakes after losing a P1. so this tactic rarely works on top players. because they have studied the solution, this means its not tactical now, its positional in thier memory from studying it in the off time between playing.
it is the players who dont study thier loses that this tactic works on.... average players dont realize this,.. and this tactic does not require study, it only requires checking opponents last recorded lose and copying until the line diverges. so average players will try this tactic on top players and usually fail. i call this "Lazy Targeting Tactic".
The best tactic is to just study a opening. and i mean Deep Study a opening. this might mean you review as many as 30,000 moves possible for one opening. so that it can be used on any player. so any 2nd and 3rd and 4th as white that they try you have a plan, where you already know the most optimal path(s), whether they are positional or novelties. some times 2 players you face, you will twist 2 different ways with them to be optimal. becuase what works on one player might not work on another. know thy opponent. there are different types of opponents. know your line, and know them, and you will know which of 2 strong paths to select in that moment.
Message was edited by: zoeyk at Jun 4, 2010 8:43 AM
Message was edited by: zoeyk at Jun 4, 2010 8:53 AM
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
Jun 4, 2010, 3:17 PM
its funny, i have now seen my self take both sides; pro db, and anti db. i guess im on the fence there.
i'll just say that as top level knowledge expands in standardizing solid P1 responses, it becomes increasingly difficult to find novelties,.. the needles become less and less,.. smaller and smaller..in the hay stack
this contributes to top level burn out. when the well dries up,.. time to move on to find a new watering hole i guess..scrabble.. poker.. or something.
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Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
Jun 4, 2010, 5:23 PM
another point I'd make is that when I use the data base, 99% of the time it is to try and find a line that is NOT in it....so as to thwart those who rely on the database for play as quickly as possible. I prefer a complete divergence from anything in there by the 5th move...esp as P2. So I love the fact the thing is there, it's a roadmap to what the non-thinking player is going to try and do.
I think the database is a really good thing, used the right way it can really help improve your game. I also agree with Zoey that those that rely on it to be told "where does it say I need to move next" are exactly the players that are going to be tripped up by it by a better player. It's only a tool, it is no replacement for your brain.
as far as the title of this thread goes, Nosovs is the man right now. You just don't catch him snoozing at the wheel (though I always am trying new ways to trip him up ). When he wants to win and is giving it 100% you are not beating him as P2. Beating him as P1 is even hard, for some of the reasons mentioned above....he studies your weaknesses then tries to create situations which put you into areas he has identified as exploitable.
Re: Can Nosovs be beaten?
Posted:
Jun 5, 2010, 4:06 PM
zoey, I understand very well the difference between beating nosov's ranking and beating him on skill. I think this is pretty obvious. The fact that you felt the need to point out the obvious does, i think, show that you have missed my point. However, I am going to drop the whole thing, so let's move on.
Thanks for explaining your views regarding the database - even if it is a bit both ways.
However on the topic of Nosovs, I disagree. I would say first though that it is not that this plagues me that I am following this trail, its that your answers do not satisfy me. I could just leave it at that of course, but perhaps I just enjoy torturing you?
What I disagree with is your assertion that for someone to beat nosovs they have to never make a mistake. You overstate your case here zoey. The fact is, is that nosovs has an error rate that is non-zero. Lets say he makes mistakes(mistakes as defined by you, say) at a rate of 1 in every 500 moves. If a player could reduce her error rate to 1 in every 501 moves then that player would clearly have a non-zero error rate but would be better than nosovs.
I think your position on this comes from the degree of difficulty you see in trying to get to that low an error rate. IMO I don't thinks this needs to be a zero error rate. I have great respect for your abilities and also your judgment on how hard this task would be, and clearly I must defer to you on the issue of the technical challenges involved. However, I will still say that you have not convinced me that, in principle, it cannot be done on skill.
But anyway, I think that's all either of us can say on that point.
). When he wants to win and is giving it 100% you are not beating him as P2. Beating him as P1 is even hard, for some of the reasons mentioned above....he studies your weaknesses then tries to create situations which put you into areas he has identified as exploitable.