Topic:
Ninuki- a tough game to learn - wins in renju, boat, and pente but lost
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Nov 9, 2008, 5:13 AM
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up2ng
Ninuki- a tough game to learn - wins in renju, boat, and pente but lost
Posted:
Sep 16, 2008, 2:57 AM
The following was the position near the end of a recent Ninuki game which I lost as player 1. The ending board position in the line I chose would have won in boat Pente, regular Pente and renju... actual board size which this game was played on was 15x15, but that wasn't a factor. Can you see a way to win a Ninuki game as P1 from the following position? So far, I can't. I'm not sure if there was an earlier winning position or not. Full game is @ http://www.gamerz.net/pbmserv/Ninuki/Ninuki.php?w=0.48&m=0
White to move...
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
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Re: Ninuki- a tough game to learn - wins in renju, boat, and pente but lost
Posted:
Sep 27, 2008, 9:30 PM
Boat-Pente
Boat-Pente is a variation of Pente proposed by player zoeyk. Also known as "boat rules" Pente.
The main difference between this game and Pente is in the end game. Once a Pente is made (5 stones in a row), the game can continue as long as the opponent is able to capture across the Pente! So in the example game below white hasn't won yet because black can capture on the next turn, removing the Pente. If after black moves the Pente is still in place then white wins.
(sorry, the picture isnt showing)
Capturing 5 pairs is still a win like in Pente and the tournament rule is used for rated games.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: Ninuki- a tough game to learn - wins in renju, boat, and pente but lost
Posted:
Sep 28, 2008, 3:03 AM
If the question is specifically how to win in the board position shown, it is for white to play to J8 (since in Boat Pente there is no restriction on double threes, this threatens to win with J11 on the next move, so black must play J11. White then follows with H7, which makes a five which can only be prevented from winning by capturing across it at L9. White then wins with either M8 or K9...
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
after playing a few games and not having been able to win a single P1 wedge game (0-4 I think) I have to say that I find it to be much more different than I thought it would be. I also read that in some cases it seemed to be played with roughly the rules which I proposed here, which would make sense, as it apparently evolved as a renju variant- which places most of the restrictions only on P1 inorder to create a fairer game. Anyway, I can pretty much tell it's beyond me at this point, but I would find it interesting to know whether P2 might have a sure winning line in wedge play or not.
ETA link Message was edited by: watsu at Oct 5, 2008 12:19 AM
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
Re: Ninuki- a tough game to learn - wins in renju, boat, and pente but lost
Posted:
Oct 27, 2008, 2:19 PM
Well, I finally managed to win a wedge game as P1 in Ninuki, but unfortunately my opponent really had the win except for a late mistake. So, I'm still left wondering whether or not P2 has a winning wedge line in Ninuki (as opposed to Pente, where it's pretty obvious the answer is no). From what I've seen in the few games I've played and looked at, the 7.) __ M10 move seems to be favored in Ninuki wedge play. K10,L9,N10,N9,M9,L8,L10,O11,L7,M10,L11,J10,O8,M10 The main way this line continues in the db is to the following position K10,L9,N10,N9,M9,L8,L10,O11,L7,M10,L11,J10,O8,M10,J9,K10,L10,H10,L12
but L12 doesn't work out in Ninuki- due to the overline not winning; a block @ L13 fouls up P1's further play there. 10. L9 has an abominable record for P1 and the only other move in the db at that point has a winning line of play which involves making a double 3- forbidden in Ninuki. Here is a question which perhaps some Pente/Ninuki/Renju experts such as the reds here and Victor Barykin (if he's not already included in that list; who can tell with those multi nicknamed Russians, right?) might care to ponder.
1.) Is there any main Player 1 Pente line (within the wedge or otherwise) in Ninuki which favors the second player or can be proven to lose to correct Player 2 play?
I think if that question could be answered it would be worth writing an article about, since it would indicate exactly how drastically the simplifications which occured affected the relative fairness of the two games.
Message was edited by: watsu at Oct 27, 2008 8:20 AM
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
