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Topic: Go and the DB
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watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Go and the DB
Posted: Mar 1, 2018 9:51 PM

I know this isn't likely to be a high priority currently, but here are a couple of wish list items of mine for improving TB Go having to do with the database:
1. Currently, when I try to enter a Go position into the DB, Pente captures occur in it even when I've made it so that I'm searching/entering Go positions, which makes it challenging to search the DB for a Go position or enter a position in order to explore it further.
2. For exploring an in game Go position using the DB to move stones around before making a move, it would be very helpful to be able to explore that position directly from the game to the DB as we are currently able to do in finished Pente games with the search the DB button. Entering 20 or 30 moves into the DB or keeping a running tab open for a Pente game is far easier than with a Go game which is 70 or 150 moves along and has been progressing for a few weeks.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney


dmitriking

Posts: 375
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Age: 40
Re: Go and the DB
Posted: Mar 2, 2018 1:07 PM

Also, when I want to move stones around for a C6 position, I can click "Search" with the game set to C6, and it will allow consecutive stones of the same color to be placed, as per C6 rules. Similar to the way that poofs won't happen in a poof position until one has clicked search with the game set to poof pente.

BUT. With Go, even after setting the game to Go and clicking search, the initial stone is still the wrong color.

rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
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Re: Go and the DB
Posted: Mar 2, 2018 1:56 PM

I haven't even started on Go support in the database. They are being stored in a way that they will be searchable in the future (modulo mistakes), but the front-end work hasn't begun yet.

If it's more convenient, I can find a way to make the game not show up in the list of options.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
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Re: Go and the DB
Posted: Mar 2, 2018 2:14 PM

> 2. For exploring an in game Go position using the DB
> to move stones around before making a move, it would
> be very helpful to be able to explore that position
> directly from the game to the DB as we are currently
> able to do in finished Pente games with the search
> the DB button. Entering 20 or 30 moves into the DB or
> keeping a running tab open for a Pente game is far
> easier than with a Go game which is 70 or 150 moves
> along and has been progressing for a few weeks.

We discussed something like that here and the general vibe was a resounding no to such a feature. Perhaps reopen the discussion there?

Edited to add: unless I'm misunderstanding you, it seems super unlikely to find a Go game in the database that is the same 70 or more moves along.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Go and the DB
Posted: Mar 2, 2018 4:20 PM

I get the reasoning behind not having this feature for Pente - much shorter length of game, much more populated DB and a much more biased game than Go. However, at least two of those reasons also make it more likely for the database to be useful for games like gomoku and Pente than for Go. I'd be surprised, unless or until we get Go games imported into the DB and/or an influx of players who have studied the game if one could frequently find positions in the DB beyond 10 stones, much less 70. The thing which would be helpful for me and other players who use the database as I do currently is for examining the consequences of a move by playing a line from both sides to see where it might end up. It's not uncommon for analysts to extrapolate 10 or moves ahead in Pente or Gomoku and I'd do the same in some Go positions, given an easy way to do it. As it stands now, not having this ability probably favors those without pets and small children (for setting up an actual board) or those who have invested money in a Go program (for storing game positions). I'll cross post an adapted version of this conversation to the other thread when I have a chance...

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
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Re: Go and the DB
Posted: Mar 2, 2018 4:34 PM

It seems a simulation mode for games is the feature you want. I don't know how people in the other thread would react to that feature.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Go and the DB
Posted: Mar 2, 2018 5:21 PM

I suppose that's basically it, yes. Generally, I find the DB roughly equal in value for seeing how others have played and for playing out a position which isn't in the DB for Pente, but would expect to use the second one nearly exclusively in Go, since even 10 stones played in a prior Go game would tell me virtually nothing about how my game might turn out 140 moves later.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
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