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dmitriking

Posts: 375
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Age: 40
King of the Hill
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 9:58 PM

I don't understand the King of the Hill system.

Yesterday I had a crown for being King of the Hill in turn-based Keryo pente. Today I no longer have my drown despite not losing and not being challenged.

How can that be?



rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
Home page
Re: King of the Hill
Posted: Sep 6, 2017 11:04 PM

The crown is only awarded when you occupy the top step by yourself, if someone joins you at the top of the hill, no one gets a crown and you have to win another game to move up one step.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
dmitriking

Posts: 375
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Age: 40
Re: King of the Hill
Posted: Sep 7, 2017 11:09 PM

Now I am even more confused. Further clarification would be appreciated. I'll start with the specific example of the recent Keryo-Pente hill.

I challenged someone, won, and moved up closer to the top. I then challenged the king (Rainwolf, I believe this was you, if I recall correctly) and I won the match, which at that moment put me at the top of the hill by myself and gave me a crown.

Now, when I asked (in my original post above) why I no longer had my crown, you replied that one must occupy the top step alone in order to be king and have crown.

(I'm not sure I think that's the best approach. Why can't someone move up to the top step, but have the current king retain the crown until someone knocks him off the top step? But for now, let's continue the analysis using that existing rule).

Here's my question - using the current rules, how did anyone who wasn't at the top (which I occupied alone) join me at the top without beating me? Shouldn't one have to defeat the king to take a spot on the top step?

I don't understand why I (Or any Hill King) should lose his crown because of a match that occurred between two other players who were both on lower steps. Forgive me for being blunt, but I'm not seeing the logic in that at all.

Then it gets more puzzling, because now, not only do I not have the crown, but You (Rainwolf) DO have the crown. How did that happen? I didn't even have a chance to defend. I'm not understanding how someone on a lower step can join me at the top of the hill and then dethrone me and take my crown all while not even playing me in a game? If two people are sharing the top step of the hill, why does one of them gain sole possession of the hill and crown just by challenging and beating someone on a lower step? I'm a bit lost here.

Some additional crown and hill questions:

When I first gained the crown, I had a crown next to my name. Now I don't. I'm confused, because I see other people who don't currently have a crown that still have the crown picture next to their name. That leads me to believe that once a person wins a crown, he gets to keep his crown icon even if he is not currently a king of a hill. But apparently not in my case, hence my confusion.

Also, I do not see a button to click "join this hill" for the real-time games. Ar those hills defunct? They are still listed and still show up, so I'm wondering why there's no way to join and challenge for those hills and crowns.

Thanks,

Dmitri

rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
Home page
Re: King of the Hill
Posted: Sep 7, 2017 11:41 PM

> (I'm not sure I think that's the best approach. Why
> can't someone move up to the top step, but have the
> current king retain the crown until someone knocks
> him off the top step? But for now, let's continue
> the analysis using that existing rule).

I'd love to discuss this in a new thread, new rules for KotH. It does get a bit trickier to design that for turn-based games.

> Here's my question - using the current rules, how did
> anyone who wasn't at the top (which I occupied alone)
> join me at the top without beating me? Shouldn't one
> have to defeat the king to take a spot on the top
> step?

The rules are such that if you win a set, you move up a step, and if you lose, you go down a step, a draw changes nothing. You can challenge players within 2 steps of your own. I went up a step because I won a set, but against someone else.

> I don't understand why I (Or any Hill King) should
> lose his crown because of a match that occurred
> between two other players who were both on lower
> steps. Forgive me for being blunt, but I'm not
> seeing the logic in that at all.

I am open to hearing a different set of rules for KotH, this is what I came up with a the time (while peeking at brainking).

> Then it gets more puzzling, because now, not only do
> I not have the crown, but You (Rainwolf) DO have the
> crown. How did that happen? I didn't even have a
> chance to defend. I'm not understanding how someone
> on a lower step can join me at the top of the hill
> and then dethrone me and take my crown all while not
> even playing me in a game? If two people are sharing
> the top step of the hill, why does one of them gain
> sole possession of the hill and crown just by
> challenging and beating someone on a lower step? I'm
> a bit lost here.

The only rules I've implemented is that winning moves you up a step and losing moves you down. I'm open to implementing a more interesting set of rules but have yet to find them.

> Some additional crown and hill questions:
>
> When I first gained the crown, I had a crown next to
> my name. Now I don't. I'm confused, because I see
> other people who don't currently have a crown that
> still have the crown picture next to their name.
> That leads me to believe that once a person wins a
> crown, he gets to keep his crown icon even if he is
> not currently a king of a hill. But apparently not
> in my case, hence my confusion.

That shouldn't be happening, if you can point out a certain user that has the KotH crown (the white one) but isn't a King of any Hill, then I can track down what went wrong.

> Also, I do not see a button to click "join this hill"
> for the real-time games. Ar those hills defunct?
> They are still listed and still show up, so I'm
> wondering why there's no way to join and challenge
> for those hills and crowns.

For real-time games, there is no need to join or leave the Hill manually. When you join the game room in the "King of the Hill" room and play a rated set there, both players get automatically added to the Hill for the game they played (if they weren't in there already), and their position gets changed accordingly if they're less than 3 steps from each other.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
dmitriking

Posts: 375
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Age: 40
Re: King of the Hill
Posted: Sep 8, 2017 1:17 AM

Thanks for the prompt reply


I think I'm understanding it better now. Regarding the color of the crowns though I am still a bit confused. What does it mean that some players have different shades of crowns showing next to their name even if they currently do not hold any crowns?

I hadn't previously noticed the king of the hill real-time room. But, how does one set up a match there? Few people (or no people, really) seem to play real-time these days. If I want to challenge a king for his crown, how do I initiate the match? Do I send a private message? What if the crown holders decline?



Regarding the turn-based crown system (We can start a discussion in a new thread and see what ides people have to add) :

Maybe this is overly simplistic, but what about a system where you can only challenge someone in a step above you? The winner of the match retains that position. So if a Step 4 player challenges a step 5 player, whoever wins would be on step 5 and the loser will be on step 4.

There would be no reason to challenge anyone on a lower step, since it would be jeopardizing the position without anything to gain. As should be the case, in my opinion. If John Smith is King and Joe Jones wishes to win the crown, he should have to go through John Smith. Joe Jones should not be able to usurp the throne by ignoring John Smith but rather challenging Fred Hayes, who is on a lower step and lower ranked than either John Smith or Joe Jones.

With this method, I'm not sure if there would be two people on the top step, but if it did happen, the person who was there first and had the crown still retains it until or unless the challenger who is now on the same step directly challenges and beats the king. When that happens, the loser of the match drops down one step below the top, and the winner retains the top step and the crown.

rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
Home page
Re: King of the Hill
Posted: Sep 8, 2017 11:10 AM

> I think I'm understanding it better now. Regarding
> the color of the crowns though I am still a bit
> confused. What does it mean that some players have
> different shades of crowns showing next to their name
> even if they currently do not hold any crowns?

Like for myself, I'm holding 14 KotH crowns and the shade of gray increases with every KotH crown. Can you mention a user who doesn't hold a crown but has a shaded crown?

The gold/bronze/silver crowns I reserve for tournaments, could it be one of those crowns that's sowing confusion?

> I hadn't previously noticed the king of the hill
> real-time room. But, how does one set up a match
> there? Few people (or no people, really) seem to
> play real-time these days. If I want to challenge a
> king for his crown, how do I initiate the match? Do
> I send a private message? What if the crown holders
> decline?

Real-time games are hard to come by these days, and setting a game date by private message even harder. It's currently set up so that you don't need to challenge a specific user for a game but can just play anyone in that specific game room and the result will be accounted for automagically for your position in the hill. The current crown holder can evade new games but can't hold on to the crown this way since you can play others to take the King's crown. He'll just have to come back and play to regain his crown.

A more complex system make more sense if real-time play comes into fashion again, but that is not the case at this time.

> Regarding the turn-based crown system (We can start
> a discussion in a new thread and see what ides people
> have to add) :
>
> Maybe this is overly simplistic, but what about a
> system where you can only challenge someone in a step
> above you? The winner of the match retains that
> position. So if a Step 4 player challenges a step 5
> player, whoever wins would be on step 5 and the loser
> will be on step 4.
>
> There would be no reason to challenge anyone on a
> lower step, since it would be jeopardizing the
> position without anything to gain. As should be the
> case, in my opinion. If John Smith is King and Joe
> Jones wishes to win the crown, he should have to go
> through John Smith. Joe Jones should not be able to
> usurp the throne by ignoring John Smith but rather
> challenging Fred Hayes, who is on a lower step and
> lower ranked than either John Smith or Joe Jones.
>
> With this method, I'm not sure if there would be two
> people on the top step, but if it did happen, the
> person who was there first and had the crown still
> retains it until or unless the challenger who is now
> on the same step directly challenges and beats the
> king. When that happens, the loser of the match
> drops down one step below the top, and the winner
> retains the top step and the crown.

Perhaps we can continue that discussion in a new thread. I do have some philosophical remarks regarding KotH that aren't an immediate response to the comments above.

KotH is a competitive scheme that's meant to spur some competition between tournaments (which can take a while to complete). I like the simplicity of rules and the way it is set up now gives lower rated players a chance for the crown, even if only briefly. I'm hesitant to include rules that pivot the advantage to higher rated players, the latter already have better odds to get the crown in the first place and have better chances to win tournament crowns which they can hold longer too (until the next tournament).

I understand that losing a crown quickly to a player who hasn't even challenged you for it takes a bit away from the motivation to play for it in the first place, but it's a trade off, if the rules pivot the advantage to lower rated players, then higher rated players are less motivated and vice versa. My interest lies in spurring competition for all players.

That being said, I'm curious to see if we can devise more interesting rules for KotH and I'm looking forward to discussing them in a new thread.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
dmitriking

Posts: 375
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Age: 40
Re: King of the Hill
Posted: Sep 8, 2017 3:35 PM

"Like for myself, I'm holding 14 KotH crowns and the shade of gray increases with every KotH crown. Can you mention a user who doesn't hold a crown but has a shaded crown?
The gold/bronze/silver crowns I reserve for tournaments, could it be one of those crowns that's sowing confusion?"

_______________________

Yes, you are correct. The crowns I was seeing were the gold silver and bronze ones which I didn't realize were for tournaments and are not related to the king of the hill crowns (which I now understand are only in shades of black/white/gray). SO, someone with multiple KoTH crowns will see his crown go from white to varying shades of gray and, if he somehow attains all of them, it will eventually be black; but a gold or silver or bronze crown is just a representation of a placement in a previous tournament and will not change in color and does not represent any KoTh accomplishments. I think I have all that correct now?



I understand and agree with everything you said about the real-time crowns and system - no point making any changes to it when turn-based seems to be the primary focus of Pente players at the moment.

And, I also see your reasoning now for the turn-based KotH system. We can still start a new thread to see if anyone has any interesting ideas, but If the current system encourages more players to participate and makes it more fun for players of all ratings (Which it almost certainly does), then I don't mind some occasional oddities such as being leapfrogged in the manner that I was. It also puts the onus on the top players to keep active and not just sit at the top of the hill doing nothing.

One final question about hills - Since there are 9 games and 3 time variants, shouldn't there be 27 hills? I noticed there is no real-time G-Pente Hill, and no hills for speed G-pente and speed GoMoku.

rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
Home page
Re: King of the Hill
Posted: Sep 8, 2017 4:08 PM

To answer your final question: The hills for the games you mentioned don't exist yet because no one has played those games yet in the real-time room, they will automagically appear when that happens. Those crowns are easy prey if you can find an opponent

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: King of the Hill
Posted: Sep 8, 2017 6:06 PM

A new thread for discussing potential changes to the KOTH format: https://www.pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=1&threadID=231400&tstart=0

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
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