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Topic: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Replies: 11   Views: 5,974   Pages: 1   Last Post: Mar 2, 2018 4:49 PM by: watsu

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Replies: 11   Views: 5,974   Pages: 1  
rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
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Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 24, 2016 2:10 PM

I recently implemented a new feature, allowing you to do database lookups from any position in any game in your game history... at the click of a button. On mobile devices, I went a step further, in addition to querying the database there's now also an option to ask what the (Mark Mammel's) AI would do.

The only thing separating this feature from ongoing games and historical games is a single line of code determining if the game is over or not. I am not keen on providing this feature to ongoing games, but I find myself wondering "what if".

Would this make pente.org a less popular place to play?
Is it a nifty feature that would give pente.org an edge?
How do you feel about playing someone who can consult the database and AI at the push of a button in their game?
... ?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯


valleyboy

Posts: 112
Registered: Mar 2, 2005
From: McAllen TX
Age: 56
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 25, 2016 2:26 AM

NO!

madmike

Posts: 89
Registered: May 27, 2014
From: Houston
Age: 64
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 25, 2016 3:31 PM

I don't think it would make pente.org any more popular, probably less
Nifty feature, but for rated games I would NOT want to play against that opponent. Otherwise I'd just play the higher level AI.

rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
Home page
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 25, 2016 3:32 PM

How about allowing it for the 1st 4 moves only to help newbies get familiar with opening moves?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
valleyboy

Posts: 112
Registered: Mar 2, 2005
From: McAllen TX
Age: 56
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 25, 2016 3:55 PM

Outcomes of competitive games are often determined by the first half dozen or so moves...

I don't want to see us become simply a reference site.

Killer feature though, for sure.

madmike

Posts: 89
Registered: May 27, 2014
From: Houston
Age: 64
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 27, 2016 10:14 AM

maybe if the newbies are playing each other?

rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
Home page
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 27, 2016 10:44 AM

I think I'll leave it at that, right now it's a subscriber feature and only for historical games, not ongoing. Thank you for all the feedback

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
valleyboy

Posts: 112
Registered: Mar 2, 2005
From: McAllen TX
Age: 56
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 28, 2016 2:44 AM

Just the same, let's keep an eye on rainwolf through his next few series of rated games...

See what I mean?

valleyboy

Posts: 112
Registered: Mar 2, 2005
From: McAllen TX
Age: 56
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 28, 2016 2:44 PM

I trust that you know I'm just teasing you, rainwolf...

And, upon further reflection, a link to only AI 1 or 2 would seem to be a good educational jump-start, not all that threatening.

I mean, every move you've made so far has strengthened and grown the site.

rainwolf

Posts: 626
Registered: Apr 12, 2008
From: Belgium
Age: 40
Home page
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 28, 2016 2:55 PM

You trust correctly

I'm leaving it out, unless a player wants to pay a few hundred USD / year to use such a feature

Newbies get their butts kicked hard enough already, and such a feature would only help the subscribers as it is only available to them.

I was, and still am, wondering how I would react if my opponents had such a feature available. I honestly don't know if I'd be turned off to play or welcome the challenge to improve myself.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
valleyboy

Posts: 112
Registered: Mar 2, 2005
From: McAllen TX
Age: 56
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Nov 28, 2016 3:12 PM

AI is still there for that challenge, and newbies aren't the only ones getting their butts kicked by the talent you've drawn here...

watsu

Posts: 826
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Turn-based games, the database, and the AI
Posted: Mar 2, 2018 4:49 PM

I get the reasoning behind not having this feature (ability to go directly from an in progress TB game to the DB) for Pente - much shorter length of game, much more populated DB and a much more biased game than Go. Perhaps to a lesser degree it also makes sense for games like gomoku, keryo and C6 (fewer games in the DB, so it is less helpful for finding already played games). However, at least two of the reasons above also make it more likely for the database to be useful for games like gomoku and Pente than for Go. I'd be surprised, unless or until we get Go games imported into the DB and/or an influx of players who have studied the game if one could frequently find positions in the DB beyond 10 stones, much less for games further along, which is where I'd find it helpful for Go. The thing which would be helpful for me and other players who use the database as I do currently is for examining the consequences of a move by playing a line out
from both sides of the board to see where it might end up.
It's not uncommon for analysts to extrapolate 10 or moves ahead in Pente or Gomoku and I'd do the same in some Go positions, given an easy way to do it, but it's too much of a pain right now to enter 70 stones into the DB in order to see how my next move might play out. As things stand now, not having the ability to use the database to explore the consequences of a move in TB play probably favors those without pets and small children (for setting up an actual physical board) or those who have invested money in a Go program (for storing their ongoing game positions).

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
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