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Topic: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
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zoeyk

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Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 27, 2010, 11:14 AM

(PLEASE NOTE: Modern day Pente Master's do currently hold the following findings as being true and correct:

That The Hammer is Sure Loss for P1, and The Wedge is Sure Win for P1.)





The One who Solves The Hammer Opening for Player One
shall be Known in Pente Forever...

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Here are my current lines of study,
to try and pull the sword from the stone of the hammer opening.
I stop in these at O10,
because from here is where the tree begins its width
of complex branching potentials.
here the study begins.






Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare


zoeyk

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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 27, 2010, 12:03 PM

here is a link to the older thread on this topic.
http://pente.org/gameServer/forums/thread.jspa?forumID=27&threadID=3978&tstart=45


In advance, i realize the question can arrise here of;
what if black does L10 or K7 on the 5th?





yes worth looking at. and after looking at the older thread im worried about K7. tho,. i still feel K7 is worth trying to solve as well. if K7 can not be beaten then P1's M8 5th is a failure. same goes for the other 2 P2 5ths. all 3 of P2's 5ths must be beaten.

I chose to show M11 on the 5th, because it is the popular answer to P1's M8 5th. and after M11 is played, the moves P1 does are rather forcing you might notice.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 27, 2010, 1:48 PM

i currently theorize that N8 will properly answer K7.
this should be studied.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 27, 2010, 8:44 PM

Nice thread! I hope some other masters weigh in here. Anyone seen ROllie lately?

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 28, 2010, 10:49 AM

So, i played a game with kolia. although i won as P1 as youll see here in this game, i noticed something on the 10th move that caught my interest.
i saw that N11 for P2 on 10th looked rather promising.

heres my game vs kolia.





here are some variations of my idea for P2 to play N11
on the 10th. P2 wins this line, which means P1's 6th at
L8 is busted. if another strong 6th for P1 to replace this
with can not be found then it will mean that P1's 5th at
M8 is also busted. further study will be required to rule
out M8 5th.

out of these 3, the last one is the best variation. i almost
thought P1 was goina pull through here, but then i found
the creative Q8 move for P2 at the end.











To be continued.....

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 28, 2010, 11:49 AM

well,.. after countless moves ive rolled through here, im pretty sure M11 beats M8. at some point when im done ill upload a move file of all the moves ive looked at for this opening over the last couple of days. it will be available for public down load.

in the mean time,.. im now looking into other P1 5ths.
possibly L8 for P1 5th. not sure yet.

probably P2 for sure wins the hammer. but you just don't know unless you search every nook and cranny. so im just checking, again.. lol. and at the same time,.. hoping i find a miracle.

kinda like looking at 3 leaf clovers,.. as a kid i would stare at them for some time,.. searching for a 4 leaf clover hiding in the field. i knew i would not find one,.. yet i continued to look any ways lol.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 28, 2010, 2:35 PM

heh.. check this out. jozso vs jhs55.
completely different opening and mid game but arrive at all identical moves from whites 10th through to blacks 18th. and if jhs had seen my move idea, he would had won vs jozso there.

this was the closest any ones gotten to the hammer line shown above that i figured out. probably one of P2's toughest to figure out lines for the hammer so far discovered.

any how...




P2 should had played G8 on the 18th for the win.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
smithd

Posts: 5
Registered: Sep 2, 2009
Age: 41
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 29, 2010, 5:34 AM

This is what I came up with on the board with p1's last move at O10. Forgive me because I do not have the vision like the masters do but here is my input. I feel M10 for p1 is the key. P2 moves o7 p1 m10, p2 L10, p1 n12, p2 L10, p1 p7, p2 o8, p1 L11, p2 L10, p1 n9.

Same scenario for p2 L11, p1 m10, p2 L10, p1 n12, p2 L10, p1 p7, p2 O8, p1 N9

If p2 plays M10 it gets more complicated... p2 m10, p1 n11, p2 n12, p1 n11, p2 m12, p1 q8, p2 r7, p1 m10, p2 L9, p1 p7, p2 08, p1 m13, p2 m12, p1 n9, p2 trade traps and p1 on top. When p2 played L9 could have played 012 but p1 p7 and after a block p1 plays m13.

I know there are a lot of hypotheticals here and this is just continuing the game from o 10. I know I didn't solve anything but just my take from that point. I don't have the pente vision like the reds but trying to study the game a little bit. Look forward to the reply because there is probably something I missed.

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 29, 2010, 6:27 AM

Highly recommended reading:

http://renju.se/rif/pente/pentgifs.htm

Specifically, the second set of links, on the pages labelled 25 - 28 provides a great discussion about the hammer that I found to be immensely helpful when I was learning the game.

http://renju.se/rif/pente/w84pen25.gif

http://renju.se/rif/pente/w84pen26.gif

http://renju.se/rif/pente/w84pen27.gif

http://renju.se/rif/pente/w84pen28.gif

zoeyk

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From: San Francisco
Age: 41
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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 29, 2010, 10:57 AM

smithd
> This is what I came up with on the board with p1's
> last move at O10.


which board? there are 3 variations that lead to O10 in my first post.
top board? middle board? bottom board?

if i know which one i can make your moves into a viewable board, and discuss them. although you really should consider learning how to make your own viewable board so others don't have to.

also,.. in the new variation i found (inspired by kolia), that first version going to O10 is a moot point now, because the line is busted by the new variation line.

but, none the less, i am interested to view and discuss my original idea with you since i did pose the question, and it is a rather interesting position i thought.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 29, 2010, 11:50 PM

To Smithd,
assuming you meant the top board, here is a viewable board of it.





yes, this works to beat P2's O7 defensive move. and P10 for P1 making a 4x3 also worked to seal the deal there too.

there are other moves besides O7 that P2 can try, but i think P1 wins no matter what.




and, here is your second senario...





yes here it shows how to beat L11. P2 just doesnt seem to have any thing in this position.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
zoeyk

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Registered: Mar 4, 2007
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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 30, 2010, 12:14 AM

@ watsu,
Rollie has been busy with his csi game project i assume. i have his email, i might send him a message sometime soon to see where hes at.

@up2ng,
thanks for the links. i read it a bit. i just have a issue with the R3U2 kinda coordinates. and was too lazy to translate 200 of these into viewable form.
i think it would be very nice to one day translate all that text into clear text, and to make all the moves into viewable boards. it would really come to life if we did that. to take it a step further would be to make a video of it narrating the story of it, along with pictures..

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
smithd

Posts: 5
Registered: Sep 2, 2009
Age: 41
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 30, 2010, 3:06 AM

Yes Zoey, it was the top board. It took me a while to look at that one board and I haven't had the chance to look at the other two. Thanks for putting my results on the board for me, I have a different board and didn't know how to post it. Also to UP2NG thanks for the links to the hammer, I have a better understanding about it now.

up2ng

Posts: 542
Registered: May 9, 2002
From: Northeast USA
Age: 38
Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 30, 2010, 5:21 AM

For completeness, go ahead and post continuations for 13 ... N11 and for 13 ... M10

zoeyk

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From: San Francisco
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Re: Solve the Hammer Opening for P1, & become a Pente Legend.
Posted: Dec 30, 2010, 2:11 PM

ok ill get to those 2 variations you proposed up2ng.


what do you think about this move?





Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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