Posts:
542
Registered:
May 9, 2002
From:
Northeast USA
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted:
Oct 19, 2008, 9:45 PM
I checked out this game before and I thought it was excellent. I was amazed after seeing the opening that white was still able to win it until I saw the extremely good mid-game play that white used to maintain enough initiative to win the game.
After a questionable opening, it seemed like the 5th move was a critical point in this game. White does not appear to have any great options and I'm not sure that H12 is best, but it got the job done. I don't blame black for countering with 5 ... M9, setting up a potential keystone attack if white plays the tria at J11 -- a lot of expert players would have played here also and it was my first thought when looking at it. I would have expected white to play defensively after this with a move like M8, getting in black's way and setting up a stretch 3 keystone attack. But instead, white played right into the face of danger with J11! In this case, white clearly saw the keystone threat and decided that he could still maintain the initiative because of the way it all lined up, and he was right!
Now, with hindsight being 20/20 and knowing that 5 ... M9 does not work, is there anything black could have done at move 5 to turn the tide? What if black plays a move like L11? I know it's ugly, but can white win after this response? If not, is there another 5th for white that's better? How about 5. H11?
Anyway, I guess the point is, the opening was a bit shaky which meant that it required amazing mid-game play to secure the win. Also, this shows that keystone attacks do not always pan out as a strategy to disrupt your opponent's initiative.
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted:
Oct 20, 2008, 3:52 AM
Dear Dean,
I love you for describing so perfectly the key juncture at move 5. I especially love "instead, white played in the face of danger with J11!" which is pretty much exactly what I was feeling when I made that move. If you want to see another beautiful example of position sacrificed for initiative, check out this gem:
I'm pretty sure anyone who took a look at white's position after 9...M8 (including yours truly) would say it looks pretty ugly. But somehow I was able to hold on to a slim thread of initiative and turn it into victory, despite multiple caps absolutely demolishing my position. Which proves the point:
Initiative > Position
which has characterized my strategy for white of late. Is Tactical > Positional a corollary of that? Can't say for sure.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
Posts:
1,032
Registered:
Dec 16, 2001
From:
Powell, OH
Age:
37 Home page
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted:
Oct 20, 2008, 3:13 PM
I agree with karl that almost all the time initiative is more important than position. It is one of the things that is interesting about Pente.
I played a turn-based Keryo set recently and was realizing one of the main difference with Keryo in my opinion is how much more important position is because of how quickly everything can go to hell when captures start.
Also I recently played a similar game as the karlw vs mersenne in turn-based against lepews and thankfully was able to see the trap that black was hoping for as karl described it. I couldn't see a clean path to a win with a forceful initiative (forced 3s and 4s) but instead gave black no offensive options and left myself with various choices for an offensive on the next move. Black resigned.
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted:
Oct 21, 2008, 1:17 AM
Dweebo,
that's an interesting argument that position is much more important in keryo because of "how quickly everything can go to hell when captures start" which is definitely true. Next time I play a keryo game I will keep that in mind and see if I agree with it. It is definitely true that initiative is much much more fragile and difficult to maintain in keryo than in pente, so a priori I agree with you. I'll get back to you after I've examined it further (which might take a while because barely anyone plays keryo seriously on this site).
And good choice in the game vs. lepews. It is true that if you can't see a solid attack, the next best thing is definitely to forget building and do everything you can to absolutely destroy black's offensive potential if possible.
-Karl
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
Posts:
1,032
Registered:
Dec 16, 2001
From:
Powell, OH
Age:
37 Home page
Re: Position ~Vs~ Initiative
Posted:
Oct 21, 2008, 3:44 PM
I didn't mean to imply in my earlier post that position is more important than initiative in keryo, I don't think I was very clear. I meant to say that I think position is more important in keryo-pente than in pente. Initiative is still key and it could be that initiative is more important than position in keryo.
Plus I've only played a handful of keryo games ever, so I am by no means an expert.
