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Topic: Shape research
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zoeyk

Posts: 2,221
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 45
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Shape research
Posted: Sep 7, 2008, 8:54 PM

zoeyk (14:49): tools
zoeyk (14:49): yes
zoeyk (14:49): there are different types of tools
zoeyk (14:50): one is understanding mechanicle shapes within patterns,...
zoeyk (14:50): another is understanding why certain 2nds and 3rds are best
zoeyk (14:51): then there is understanding the principles of momentum
zoeyk (14:51): momentum =initiative
zoeyk (14:52): a common word used in games likt chess and Go
zoeyk (14:52): there is more than one type
zoeyk (14:53): self sustaining, and temporary
zoeyk (14:53): they is also a process of thought in a order to determine the move
zoeyk (14:53): questions to be asked
zoeyk (14:53): to know
zoeyk (14:54): offence vs defence and whos got it when
zoeyk (14:54): reading the board, understanding the state of the moment.
zoeyk (14:55): looking down multiple paths in a way to create a list of values
zoeyk (14:55): comparing values
zoeyk (14:56): have the capasity, to.....look at massive cap trade junctures
zoeyk (14:56): look down all paths a set number of moves
zoeyk (14:57): see the after math of the cap trade landing
zoeyk (14:57): then read the board from that new patterns state
zoeyk (14:57): do this down several paths
zoeyk (14:57): compare
zoeyk (14:58): if white is your color.....
zoeyk (14:58): you look for perfect play
zoeyk (14:59): if black is your color,...you can either play the board like white does,...or you can adjust for indeviduals in a phycological manner
zoeyk (15:00): to trick,....create illusions,....smoke and mirrors
xtraclassy (15:00): do wahatever causes confusion?
zoeyk (15:00): right
zoeyk (15:00): only as black
zoeyk (15:00): never as white
zoeyk (15:00): white white trys to win by trick,...black will win
zoeyk (15:01): if white i mean
zoeyk (15:01): trick equals,....losing move that has trap white can choose to avoid if seen
zoeyk (15:02): white does not relly on what black does
zoeyk (15:02): no trickery needed
zoeyk (15:02): white has the win at move one
zoeyk (15:03): K10 is perfect and flawless in every sence
zoeyk (15:03): black has no good answer that beats K10
zoeyk (15:03): black only has tricky first moves
zoeyk (15:03): but why?
zoeyk (15:04): and ,...
zoeyk (15:04): what is initiative in reguads to K10?
zoeyk (15:04):
zoeyk (15:05): by whites 3rd move it can usually make either a threating move,..or a forcing move





























"Figure one" with extra stones added for game play example.

K10,J10,L10,N10,M10,L8,O11,M9,O12,L11,M12,J8,O13



"Figure one" with no extra stones to show only the core shape.

K10,J10,A1,N10,A2,L8,O11,M9,A3,L11,A5,J8,A4









"Figure two"

K10,J10,L10,A2,M10,A3,M12,A4,L13





"Figure three"

K10,J9,L11,A1,M12,A2,O12,A3,O11




"Figure four"

K10,J9,L11,A1,M12,A2,O12,A3,O10




"Figure five" potential double threat in 2 moves

K10,J11,L9,A1,M8,A2,Q10,A3,R7,A4,S6




"Figure six" potential double threat in 2 moves

K10,A1,L11,A2,K6,A3,N5,A4,O5




"Figure seven" potential double threat in 2 moves

K10,A1,G13,A2,G9,A3,D10,A4,C11




"Figure eight" potential double threat in 1-2 moves

K10,O9,N10,A1,M11,A2,L12,A3,K12




"Figure nine"

K10,K14,K12,O10,K13,A1,M10,A2,N10,A3,H11,A4,L8




"Figure ten"


K10,K9,K11,A1,K12,A2,N13,A3,M13




"Figure eleven" "Richardiii's winding the clock" example1

K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,


K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,G12


K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,G12,L10


K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,G12,L10,J10


K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,G12,L10,J10,K9


K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,G12,L10,J10,K9,J13


K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,G12,L10,J10,K9,J13,J11


K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,G12,L10,J10,K9,J13,J11,G9


K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,G12,L10,J10,K9,J13,J11,G9,G11


K10,T1,G10,S1,J12,R1,J10,H10,H11,K13,G12,L10,J10,K9,J13,J11,G9,G11,K12


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare

karlw

Posts: 970
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 36
Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 8, 2008, 12:23 AM

winding the clock is incredibly sexy. although some of the other shapes look really outlandish to me--I can't think of a common line in which they would show up. figures 5-7, for example.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
watsu

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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 8, 2008, 4:04 AM

I hope we can get some of the more talented analysers to dig into these; quite a few of them look familiar from games

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 8, 2008, 10:48 AM

well,..lets start with figures 2, 3, and 10

do these share enough commonality to be labeled as the same type of shape,.. or do they deserve to be classified separately? and if so or not what shall they be named as.
and is one stronger than another?

thanks,..and once we get an answer to this i will ask other questions for some other shapes.

~zoey

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
dweebo

Posts: 1,032
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Powell, OH
Age: 37
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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 8, 2008, 3:07 PM

Very cool idea zoey, hope we get some people working on these.

I do agree with karl that many of these are bizzare and wouldn't happen in a normal game, but still can be fun I guess in a puzzle sort of way.

I do like winding-the-clock and know I've stumbled across that before.

I've got a few shapes I've thought of documenting before that I'll try and put up here eventually.

-dweebo

Pente Rocks!
zoeyk

Posts: 2,221
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From: San Francisco
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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 8, 2008, 6:47 PM

ty,..yes,.. the weird ones i put i knew wouldn't normally happen,..but i still wanted to define what they were by classification. they were only examples to go on of odd long range shapes that "could" happen.

i would like to create either a shape family class system,.. or a set of rules for defining shapes.

in addition,...i saw the other thread for playable boards for the forums. and very cool!
my question is can you make it so i can set up a playable board so i can have any odd number of color stones in any position in any order i want? and for example be able to put only all white stones and maybe one black stone on the board.

the reason for this is so i can show my exploring of mechanical shapes and show their mechanical functions in motion.

perhaps script a cross coordinate that is off the board that can hold infinite # of stones and any stones on that cross coordinate would be invisible to the readers as to make a solution for the feature im asking about.

~zoeyk

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
dweebo

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From: Powell, OH
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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 8, 2008, 6:53 PM

yeah i thought there already was a way to load up white pieces and black pieces separately to avoid the problem you ran into.

there is code already to do that in the part of the system that draws the image. its just that currently there is no way to make it work from the forums.

should be a pretty simple change.
-dweebo

Pente Rocks!
zoeyk

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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 8, 2008, 6:55 PM

cool thanks! i cant wait!

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
dweebo

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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 8, 2008, 7:13 PM

ok, the code did already exist, i just forgot how to do it:

[board]g=Pente wm=K10,O11 bm=J10,N10,L8,M9,L11,J8[/board]




you can also specify the number of captures for white and black, and change the image size:

[board]g=Pente wm=K10,O11 bm=J10,N10,L8,M9,L11,J8 wc=4 bc=2 w=300 h=300[/board]




Pente Rocks!
zoeyk

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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 8, 2008, 7:21 PM

very nice,..and i assume that if no white stones then remove wm=


and can we make it go in motion? with arrow keys n stuff?

and ide like to specify a starting point,..so it doesnt need to start at the first stone.

the reason for this is so i can show my exploring of mechanical shapes and show their mechanical functions in motion.


Message was edited by: zoeyk at Sep 8, 2008 1:32 PM


Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
dweebo

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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 9, 2008, 3:08 AM

not sure what you mean about not starting at the first stone zoey?

right now there is no way to provide motion w/ arrow keys but that would be nice to add at some point.

-dweebo

Pente Rocks!
zoeyk

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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 10, 2008, 10:24 AM

i meant to start the viewing board at the position of the beginning shape,.. so then the viewer could click forward to view in motion what the shape is designed to do if un answered. but if it starts off at a single stone then the viewer might not know at which point the core beggining shape was completed right before it triggers its double threat feature...hope that was said clearly.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
sjustice

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From: pensacola
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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 12, 2008, 11:43 AM

Figures 2, 3 and 10 are similar and can be grouped together as the "Scissortail". A key difference between a novice player and a good player is that the novice usually prematurely extends his threes into fours while the better player leaves his three alone and often has the threat of the Scissortail looming. Here's what Braunlich said in Pente Strategy Book II, page 32, diagram 21: "This formation is a very educational Magnitude 3 threat to study. I like to call it the "scissortailed flycatcher", after the state bird of Oklahoma, or the scissortail for short. Don't ask me where I get my names; sometimes its difficult to christen these things."

I like the Scissortail.

zoeyk

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Re: Shape research
Posted: Sep 12, 2008, 6:58 PM

thank you scott

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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