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Topic: Score? (formerly called Game?)
Replies: 21   Views: 5,357   Pages: 2   Last Post: Jul 15, 2022, 9:09 PM by: zoeyk

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watsu

Posts: 1,270
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Score? (formerly called Game?)
Posted: Jul 13, 2022, 5:52 PM

Unlike nearly all classic Pente puzzles, this is a retrograde analysis puzzle, where the legality of the position as a possible one to arise from an actual game (no matter how weird) is a key element in solving the puzzle. Retrograde analysis problems are much more common in chess than in Pente. Initially, I had included identifying the game being played as part of the puzzle, but came to realize it could be either ninuki renju or Pente. After double checking, I think there is now only one solution. Zoeyk's solution works for a typical Pente puzzle, where a position doesn't have to arise from legal game play. I think (after adjustments) that there is now a single solution for this puzzle.

Player 2 resigns. Deduce the capture score.




or


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 13, 2022, 11:16 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 14, 2022, 12:48 AM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 14, 2022, 1:02 AM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 14, 2022, 1:08 AM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 14, 2022, 9:47 AM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 14, 2022, 10:01 AM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat


zoeyk

Posts: 2,071
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 13, 2022, 6:09 PM

Maybe I'm misunderstanding. But, pente, and white has already taken 4 caps and its whites move and whites about to go K12? Sorry but you'll need to explain this puzzle better maybe

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,270
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 13, 2022, 6:19 PM

I'm not sure how to explain it better without giving more puzzle information.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,071
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From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 13, 2022, 8:25 PM

I mean, how many caps each got and whose move is it....

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,270
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 13, 2022, 8:52 PM

That's the puzzle.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,071
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 13, 2022, 10:57 PM

Too vague for my skill level.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,270
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 13, 2022, 11:25 PM

It's a retrograde puzzle. Figure out the game and cap score (if any) which would make a strong TB player 2 resign the above position as a losing one. I moved one stone up one intersection just now, in case it might interfere with a line.
ETA: I'm pretty sure this is my first try on a retrograde analysis puzzle. Hopefully, I'll improve and double check before posting more


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 14, 2022, 12:29 AM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,071
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Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 14, 2022, 3:21 AM

My answer might had not been correct. But it was also not incorrect either. So if it has more than one answer, you should state that.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,270
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 14, 2022, 10:08 AM

I've updated the original post to reflect the fact that your solution was a valid one for a typical Pente puzzle and added more explanation of retrograde analysis puzzles, since they are common in chess but unusual in Pente. I think there is now a single correct retrograde analysis solution for the board position. Sorry for the initial lack of explanation of the type of puzzle and originally multiple solutions.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,071
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 14, 2022, 5:27 PM

Whose move is it? P2s?

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,270
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 14, 2022, 6:18 PM

There are an odd number of stones, so correct - player 2 to move.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,071
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 14, 2022, 6:52 PM

The puzzle just seems too over broad, and vague. I do not think its solvable, by anyone on earth. We don't know how many captures each has. We don't know what variant this is. I feel you implied its not pente or gomoku. And most people here including my self do not play renju.
For all I know p2 resigned because he got hungry and wanted to go make a sandwich.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,270
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 14, 2022, 10:06 PM

It's on a Pente board; initially I had 4 choices for games (swap2 gomoku, renju, ninuki renju and Pente). It's a Pente puzzle. If I made a keryo puzzle (ugh) I would put it on that board, same for a boat or poof or D puzzle. I think someone will figure it out. Count the white and black stones for a hint, observe that there isn't a stone on K10 for another hint.

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,071
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 14, 2022, 11:17 PM

I would like to hear what Pente_gon thinks. Because your puzzle is weird.
So, before it was any variant, and now its just pente? I don't think that was made clear. And before we had to say why P2 quit, but now instead we have to say how many captures each player has? You have not explained your puzzle clearly. Which I find highly odd for someone who has made puzzles before.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,270
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Game?
Posted: Jul 14, 2022, 11:21 PM

Before, I said game and capture score (if any). Now it's capture score. First retrograde analysis puzzle.
ETA: I don't know what pente_gon will think of the puzzle, but remember him posting at least one retrograde analysis Pente puzzle in the forums in the past.


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 14, 2022, 11:30 PM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
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