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Topic: Ultimate Pente variant (according to Rollie Tesh)
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watsu

Posts: 1,306
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Ultimate Pente variant (according to Rollie Tesh)
Posted: Jun 27, 2022, 2:48 PM

"Have you guys tried combining B[oat]-Pente with D-Pente? And for the ultimate -- disallow 6-in-a-row as well?" Rollie Tesh

Interestingly, Rollie didn't include either the keryo (which he created) or poof variants in his idea of an "ultimate" Pente variant. Just a swap variant (D), an overtime capture variant (Boat) and disallowing 6-in-a-row (gomoku and ninuki rule).

As I've started looking at swap2 gomoku a bit more (in order to explain strategy differences between Pente and gomoku to gomoku players) I've finally decided I agree with Rollie's assessment that these three elements (but using swap2 openings instead of D openings for live games and overlines allowed but don't win) could form a good basis for an "ultimate" Pente variant.
Now to explain why to doubters and those on the fence...

1. It brings the game closer to both gomoku (a more popular game worldwide than Pente and one of ninuki renju's grandparents) and ninuki renju (Pente's parent game)
2. Single live games of "ultimate" (swap2) Pente could decide either a winner or a draw (rare, but possible) between two tournament participants
3. Currently, there are a few sites which have near misses to this game (at flyordie 6 doesn't win, at boardgame arena one can play swap2 Boat Pente with 6-in-a-row forbidden) but 6-in-a-row forbidden doesn't allow for a draw and 6-in-a-row doesn't win by itself is too favorable for the first player.
4. Though poof Pente (and variants which include poofs) can end in a draw, I think the rules above are parsimonious in terms of creating a draw in a reasonably balanced game without resorting to poof draws. They also simplify the rules of ninuki renju (no move restrictions) and while they offer the rare possibility for drawn games, those draws are unlikely to arise due to a filled board (as in gomoku and renju) and could occur with significantly fewer moves than a drawn gomoku or renju game
5. I think that with the additions of overtime captures and overlines not winning, first stones in the center would still allow for enough relatively balanced (or at least tricky) proposals for edge proposals to be unnecessary (though they could still be an optional subvariant). This would be in keeping with renju and ninuki renju (and Boat Pente, etc.) and allow for more familiarity and experience from other games to come into play (as well as making the database more useful for line studying, etc.)
ETA: #4
ETA: #5
ETA: clarified that swap2 is really only necessary in live games, D would be fine in TB, I think.
Message was edited by: watsu at Jun 27, 2022, 4:14 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jun 27, 2022, 6:55 PM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jun 29, 2022, 6:19 AM
ETA: changed description to reflect that a draw is a possible outcome of the 6-in-a-row doesn't win rule alone.


Message was edited by: watsu at Jul 26, 2022, 11:35 AM

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat


zoeyk

Posts: 2,086
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
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Re: Ultimate Pente variant (according to Rollie Tesh)
Posted: Jun 29, 2022, 3:46 AM

I agree, only if P1s first move is on K10 center of the board. Thats a requirement for me to agree.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,306
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Ultimate Pente variant (according to Rollie Tesh)
Posted: Jun 29, 2022, 6:09 AM

"I agree, only if P1s first move is on K10 center of the board. Thats a requirement for me to agree."

Based on my small understandings of other games, draws (and theoretically balanced positions) arise in:
1. renju due to swaps + 15x15 board size + restrictions on player 1 moves
2. swap2 gomoku due (primarily, it seems to me) to near edge or corner positions in which player 2 is able to prevent player 1 from finding a winning sequence through accurate defensive play

By contrast, in ninuki renju draws arise from an overline being captured across to create a 5 for one player and simultaneously a fifth capture (I would say additionally or a perfect 5) for the other player; smaller board size, swaps, move restrictions and edge positions aren't needed for a ninuki draw.

One example of a ninuki renju draw position was found by up2ng and zoeyk in 2008 -



Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
zoeyk

Posts: 2,086
Registered: Mar 4, 2007
From: San Francisco
Age: 43
Home page
Re: Ultimate Pente variant (according to Rollie Tesh)
Posted: Jun 29, 2022, 7:32 AM

Lol, so you're saying in 2008 I already ruined the perfect variant if played from K10? Gosh my bad lol.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

Posts: 1,306
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Ultimate Pente variant (according to Rollie Tesh)
Posted: Jun 29, 2022, 7:43 AM

Lol, not so much ruined as found one draw with up2ng on the wedge line. I think there are a few more proposals to explore, lol. As I recall, the game played out differently and then you two went on an exploratory field trip which resulted in this position. Timed, swap2, rated and no undos allowed, I don't know where this would've gone. Just giving a draw example.

Message was edited by: watsu at Jun 29, 2022, 7:44 AM


Message was edited by: watsu at Jun 29, 2022, 7:47 AM


Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
watsu

Posts: 1,306
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Re: Ultimate Pente variant (according to Rollie Tesh)
Posted: Jun 29, 2022, 10:03 AM

The wedge may well be a player 2 win in this variant (I would choose player 2 in a TB wedge proposal). I'd choose Viktor Barykin's choice of 7th move in ninuki renju (at least for now).

Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
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