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Topic: Pente's equivalent to joseki?
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watsu

Posts: 1,170
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Pente's equivalent to joseki?
Posted: Apr 24, 2022, 4:47 AM

I was recently asked about joseki ("the studied sequences of moves for which the result is considered balanced for both black and white sides" according to wikipedia) in Pente. My reply was basically it pretty much doesn't exist in pro rules Pente as played here, at least not as defined for Go and Shogi. This is due to the use of the word balance in the definition of joseki, since any studied sequence of Pente moves is going to be unbalanced in favor of either the first player (think wedge opening) or the second player (think hammer opening). However, if balanced is replaced by something like "a good game" or "a good line to study" perhaps the wedge and hammer openings could be considered a Pente equivalent to joseki. If a studied D or swap2 proposal similarly results in "a good game" (perhaps defined as a game between expert or higher rated players which lasts at least eighteen (or so) moves) then perhaps those proposals would also be considered Pente joseki.
So, my question is: besides the wedge and hammer openings, are there any other studied opening sequences in Pente which expert or master level players consider to offer "a good game"? By the "at least eighteen moves" standard I can't come up with any off the top off my head. A few Boston lines might perhaps qualify maybe? Anyone have other ideas?

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney


karlw

Posts: 952
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Pente's equivalent to joseki?
Posted: Apr 24, 2022, 8:49 PM

I believe there are cases where P1 playing a suboptimal 3rd move can narrow the victory tree diagram down to a single path, where P1 needs to play a sequence of only moves or P2 will steal the initiative. One such example might be this game:

https://pente.org/gameServer/viewLiveGame?mobile&g=41000002945343

This is as close to a perfect game of pente as you can find between two of the all-time greats, played at the first Brf St. Pat's tournament. After K10 L9 N10 J7 K8 (which may be slightly weaker than L8), the game becomes very close. In my tournament game against mumix (somehow lost because he timed out and we had to reinstate the game), I deviated from Mastema's line at move 12 by capturing at J9. This takes P2 one cap closer to victory but also sets P1 up for another cap. In both lines, P1 has to walk a very tight rope.

Another example:

https://pente.org/gameServer/viewLiveGame?mobile&g=50000000404124

After K10 K9 N10 M8 N8 (an inaccuracy--it has been shown that N12 results in relatively easy win), it is unclear who is winning. I think it may be P2!

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
watsu

Posts: 1,170
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Pente's equivalent to joseki?
Posted: Apr 24, 2022, 9:38 PM

Thanks for those examples, Karl. Any thoughts as far as suboptimal second moves for white which can create a good game?

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
karlw

Posts: 952
Registered: Mar 7, 2006
From: Eugene, Oregon
Age: 32
Re: Pente's equivalent to joseki?
Posted: Apr 27, 2022, 7:23 PM

K10 K9 K7 was trendy here for a while. I believe it is inferior to 2 N10 and 2 O10, mainly because of the incredible third move 2 K7 M9 3 L9 M7!! (the main line used to be ...M8, but that has been essentially solved as a win for P1). I believe the jury is still out on who is winning--I didn't get a chance to use it in tourney, presumably because people saw some of my games in the db and didn't like the look of it.

Here is a game where p1 plays the natural 4 M8 followed by 5 O7:




Later, homebrew threw a curveball at me and blocked on the other end, sacrificing a pair for a more powerful offensive structure:




I'm sure improvements can be found in both lines.

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
watsu

Posts: 1,170
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Home page
Re: Pente's equivalent to joseki?
Posted: Apr 28, 2022, 9:53 PM

Thanks for those game examples, Karl. Definitely an interesting line.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
etyrnal

Posts: 4
Registered: Mar 29, 2022
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Re: Pente's equivalent to joseki?
Posted: May 18, 2022, 7:22 PM

it would be pretty cool if this site, and the app would allow two scenarios:

1.) a player can set up an unrated experimental/educational game where that player places pieces for both players up to a certain move, then invites another player to agree to resume the game, taking over for whichever color is offered...

2.) a play could chose a game from the database, tell the app/site which move number to start from, and the the site/app would create a new unrated/educational game, with pieces/caps set, with game history up to that point, and then that play could choose a color, and offer it up as either a public, or private invite.

What would be an additional coolness would be to be able to branch that game, have the original indicate in the database that it was branched [with a table of games branched from it], and the new branch automatically instantiated as a new game starting at the current position [including if the player who branches it had stepped back a few moves - the branch would branch from that move being viewed]... the app/site would ask if this was to be branched as a new public invite, or a private [same players, or different] invite...

gaylen

Posts: 103
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: cottage grove, oregon
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Re: Pente's equivalent to joseki?
Posted: May 23, 2022, 12:05 AM

Around 15 or so years ago I always wanted to go back to a certain move in a game and replay an alternate move (usually as a p2 loss by me) after studying the game more. And of course giving my opponent (could be another player) the option of p1 or p2 at that point.

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