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Topic: Game: rollietesh vs. zoeyk 04/18/2010
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watsu

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Game: rollietesh vs. zoeyk 04/18/2010
Posted: May 17, 2020, 6:14 AM




"Zoeyk would beat me in a match, but at least for one game I got to feel young again. I'd be interested in seeing someone's analysis of that game. It was one of the most complicated I've ever been involved in." - Rollie Tesh, 04/18/2010

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watsu

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Re: Game: rollietesh vs. zoeyk 04/18/2010
Posted: May 17, 2020, 6:32 AM

After ten years and quite a bit of pushing stones, database and computer analysis, some ideas from other players and a memorial puzzle made from this game a year ago I now finally feel like I can make at least a preliminary attempt at analysing this game between Rollie Tesh and Zoeyk played in April of 2010. Note that there will be spoilers/solutions for the Rollie Tesh memorial puzzle in this thread, so if wish to view this game as a puzzle and you've not already attempted to solve that puzzle and given up on your attempts, you should not read further in this thread until you have. Feedback and corrections on my analysis are welcomed, since there may well be moves or lines that I'm still missing in this game. This was an incredible game, particularly for a live game and I feel privileged to have watched it live! It offered more complexity and challenge for analysis than the vast majority of turn based games.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
watsu

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Re: Game: rollietesh vs. zoeyk 04/18/2010
Posted: May 17, 2020, 7:41 AM

Puzzle spoilers and hints follow... you've been warned...



1. K10 K9 2. J11 N10 3. L10!?
More common here is the move 3. L8, but Rollie's line still wins, at least against the next few responses which Zoeyk chose, which are likely to be the best possible replies. I haven't analysed all the possible lines after 3. L10, so I can't swear it's a winning move, but it at the very least doesn't lose against Zoey's replies.
3. ... M10 4. L8!
Most players here don't find this move, which is currently the only fourth move in the database with a winning record and a significant amount of play.
4. ... L11
5. M9?
After a significant amount of computer, database and personal analysis, I'm pretty sure this was Rollie's first mistake in this game. I'm hesitant to call it a blunder; by Rollie's definition of blunder as used in the old Pente newsletters I believe it may qualify, but I'll refer to it as a mistake instead. It may indeed be a game losing mistake, but the path to the win after it is long and subtle. I think it does give Zoeyk his first opportunity to win the game, though. As we'll see later in the analysis, Zoeyk's resulting opportunity is not easy to spot even in post game analysis and the sure win continuation line for P2 which results from this move wasn't found at all during post game analysis. Better here is 5. N9! though moves like K12 and perhaps others may also be winning fifths for Rollie.
If 5. N9, then 5. ... K12 is followed by 6. N11 N8 7. K7 or N12, either of which I think will win by move 16 if P1 plays accurately and P2 plays to prolong the inevitable. If P2 doesn't play K12, I believe in nearly all cases the best sixth for P1 will be 6. K12* which I think should again win for P1 by move 16. regardless of how P2 plays after that, generally with a diagonal Pente.


Mark Mammel's program favored 6. N8 over 6. N11 after 5. ... K12 in the board above, but then won the game against itself as P2...


The line above will cover (or be similar to) fifth moves by P2 nearly anywhere on the board, but those moves wouldn't be picked by zoeyk, so let's look at a few more challenging moves after 5. N9 as well.





I think all of the boards in this post after the first board are sure P1 wins, but if you have an idea for P2 at or after the move 5. N9 please let me know.

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
watsu

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Re: Game: rollietesh vs. zoeyk 04/18/2010
Posted: May 17, 2020, 8:06 AM

Going back to the actual game, we have:
5. M9? K7
I think 5. ... K7 is preferable to 5. ... O11, which I think may lose to 6. J10, but I believe that 6. J10 loses after 5. ... K7.
6. K12 K11
7. N9 N8?


Better here is 7. ... L11!!
Ironically, perhaps the only reason anyone would be aware of this move is that during the game Rollie was typing in chat potential moves for himself and L11 was one of the moves he typed. I mistook it for a potential move seven for Zoey and noted at the time that it might have potential worth looking at later. After 7. ... L11!! 8. M11 H11 9. G11 O9! is the best line P1 can muster as analysed in the Rollie Tesh memorial puzzle by tin_can, but I've been unable to find a win for P1 after * 9. ... O9 * with the lines I explored ending with a P2 win at moves 22 and 23, which is why I believe 5. M9? was a mistake by Rollie. Several of us analysed the game for a couple of hours as it might have played out after 7. ... L11!! in the days following this game, but no one had the idea of continuing towards 9. O9!, so we eventually (likely incorrectly) concluded that Rollie would still have had a win.




Message was edited by: watsu at May 30, 2020, 9:41 PM
* changed 9. ... G11 to 9. ... O9 *


I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
watsu

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Re: Game: rollietesh vs. zoeyk 04/18/2010
Posted: May 17, 2020, 8:31 AM

Spoiler warning... I'll be providing at least one hint towards the solution for the Rollie Tesh memorial puzzle in this post... you've been warned...

Continuing with the actual game, we have:
8. L11 M10
9. N11?
If this was indeed Rollie's second mistake of the game it's possibly even more subtle than his first one. So far, this is the only place where I've found an improvement for Rollie after 8. ... M10, but perhaps others will be able to find improvements later in the game, thus saving this move from the mistake category. My improvement here is 9. J9! Which I believe wins for P1 and is an improvement over 9. N11? Why? Stay tuned for the currently unpublished finale and solution to the Rollie Tesh memorial puzzle...





I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
watsu

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Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Game: rollietesh vs. zoeyk 04/18/2010
Posted: May 17, 2020, 8:51 AM



*drumroll, please...


... and P2 wins by move 21, the ninth move after the move which diverges from the actual game.
P2 manages to ignore and overcome a tria with a combination of
1. A superior threat which forces a pair exchange in order for P2 not to have a faster win, thus increasing the capture count so that P1's threat will fizzle out once P2 makes
2. A soft block on one side of the tria with a forcing move and
3. An attack on a newly created keystone pair which also simultaneously builds two diagonal threats

The above is what P1 needs to see and prevent somewhere around five moves before it actually starts to unfold in the game (feel free to find a correction to that estimate).


Message was edited by: watsu at May 20, 2020, 5:41 AM

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
zoeyk

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Re: Game: rollietesh vs. zoeyk 04/18/2010
Posted: May 30, 2020, 3:35 AM

You made a very good find Watsu. Yes Rollie made error, and I then made error to not exploit on that. Was just casual 20 minute game tho. And I was rather distracted by my conversation with him during the game. But, even if focused, I still would had missed what you found. I mean, a group of masters spent a couple months analyzing the game in the forum, and none saw this, so I think it wasn't obvious. You certainly did some deep study to run across this error and exploit. good work.

Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
watsu

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Registered: Dec 16, 2001
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Re: Game: rollietesh vs. zoeyk 04/18/2010
Posted: May 30, 2020, 6:46 AM

Thanks, Zoey. It was Mark's program that found the line, I just looked at the move at 13 and thought "I wonder what would happen if this move were made here instead." I think I was reviewing the game as a teaching example. Then the AI found that line and I tried to contact Rollie. Sad that he never got to see it 😢

I don't want to play non tournament rules games. If you take one of my unrated invites, play tourney
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