Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
May 26, 2006, 7:31 PM
go is a very cool game. i borrowed some terms from it already, i.e. two-point jump and three-point jump. the ideas of sente and gote (i.e. retaining and losing the initiative) dominate pente play--come to think of it, they dominate most all 2 player turn-based games of a certain complexity. I have never heard of or seen the winding the clock technique...sounds intriguing. One of my favorite tricks is the pattern where one player keeps forming alternately stretch fours and normal fours, which forms a repeating situation which will usually result in either the first player winning by captures, or the 2nd player giving up the capture war with a resulting losing position.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
May 30, 2006, 1:44 AM
I began this undertaking with an incomplete understanding of pente openings. Now I realize that the format in which I am attempting to classify pente openings is flawed: it is practically impossible to declare a position strong, medium, or weak after only three moves. With that in mind, I will now attempt to salvage this project by redefining my parameters.
I have looked at all of the nine acceptable openings (M10, K9, L9, M9, N9, O9, N8, O8, and O7), and have come to the following conclusion: two are strong, seven are weak. Here is the rundown:
L9 (and M9) lose to N10. The pawnbroker (J10) fails, the wedge (N9) fails, everything else fails miserably.
K9 (and N9) also lose to N10. The wedge fails, the diagonal 1J's fail, the match jump (N9) fails, the back jump (H9) fails.
I have not played the M10 openings as much, but I am pretty sure it fails to N10.
O7 is a neat trick opening that can catch white off guard, but it fails to many moves, N12 being a notable example.
That leaves us with two openings: N8 and O9. In my opinion, these are the two strong openings.
Questions? Comments?
Message was edited by: karlw at Jun 3, 2006 6:17 PM
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 3, 2006, 3:50 PM
karlw,
Good to see so much interest!
You were on the right track before. Trying to "salvage" your project by saying that 2 first moves are stronger than the other 7 is not the way to go. It shows where you currently are in understanding the game. I can remember playing one 1st move a lot, then another, each time beating it to death until I saw and understood its futility. Just like you appear to be doing now. When you've studied it a while longer, you will see that all 9 of black's 1st moves are "weak". In other words, they all lose miserably to strong play by white. Personally, I believe the real point of your project here is to "prove" this, by showing all reasonable combinations of the next few moves to follow, in all 9 cases. (Assuming there are only 9 -- you have already dismissed moves such as M8 or N10)
This is a pretty big task, and very tough to get it right. But, I think the masters of the game that lose interest and "retire" have all done this on their own, or have come to a complete understanding that it is possible -- that the game can be "solved".
Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 4, 2006, 12:15 AM
to up2ng!
Oh YEAH?!? Well try this on for size: I challenge, nay, DEFY you to play me rated 20 min. timer pro-pente and do these two things: beat me in less than 15 moves white against both my n8 and o9, and beat me using any move other than n8 and o9. If and ONLY if you or anyone else can do both these things will I retract my claim that n8 and o9 are substantially stronger than the other openings
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 5, 2006, 11:52 AM
im not sure if there is a win in 15 moves in n8/o9 opening (i have never counted moves), but in fact it doesnt matter if the game ends in 15th or 17th move, cause probably from about 10th move there will be a win for white (player 1).
of course it doesnt mean that n8/o9 (and not only these two) aren't good moves for black to play, as most players have problems to win such games and there are some possibilities to surprise your opponent.
Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 5, 2006, 7:35 PM
This is my theory (it may be wrong), which explains why I favor n8 and o9 over the other openings:
It is my opinion, and I stand behind it, that the 2 point jump (K10 to N10, G10, K13 or K7) is the strongest 2nd move for white. The reason that I favor n8 and o9 over all other openings is the fact that with most openings, the 2 point jump cements an early victory for white if played correctly, whereas with n8 and o9, they are actually weaker than certain other openings, in particular the 3 point jump, the broken wing jump, and what i will heretofore refer to as the "special" jump, or K10 to N11, K10 to N9, etc. These openings aren't as powerful as the 2-point jump for creating winning positions, but they are necessary in fighting n8 and o9.
These other openings lead to complex and interesting positions in which it is easy for black to force white to make a move he isn't sure about, whereas in the openings where white plays the 2J, games become simple and by the book. This is why I prefer the n8 and o9 openings.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 14, 2006, 7:51 AM
I suppose I shouldn't say this, since karlw is only 18 and all, but I'm really fond of staying up late at night and drinking heavily. Anyway, late at night when nobody's playing pente, I love this chat, cuz I know I can find some pente material that will amuse me, and challenge me. Then I have to go figure out like what O9 and M10 and stuff are. Whew! Richard's terms are great. Ever perform a "soft block" in the grocery store checkout line? Dude you gotta get yer own "The Five Straight, how it really is and news from around the world with K A R L W" bloggin creation goin' on. Seriously, I'm there!!!
Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 19, 2006, 1:07 AM
More developments:
Turns out O9 isn't as strong as I naively thought it to be--it's just too damn far away from the action. Also turns out there are more than nine good openings; I count 12. Now instead of analyzing each of them one by one, I've decided to group them based on the one characteristic that dominates opening theory: distance from the keystone. There's the near openings (L10, M10, L9, M9, M8), the middle openings (N10, N9, N8), and the far openings (O9, O8, N7, O7). Over the next couple weeks, I will analyze these three groups based on their strengths and weaknesses, the kinds of games they lead to, and the overall style of play that they foster.
I will then tell you why the middle openings (N10, N9, N8) are the best, being a healthy compromise between the extremes of the far and the near openings. I say this with great pride, because for the first time I feel confident that this is the last revision I will make to my theory. In the 600+ games I've played on this site, I've gradually evolved into someone who actually knows something about pente, and this final theory represents the high point of my understanding of this game.
Many thanks to karencita for showing me the subtle strengths of the more obscure openings. She has taught me a lot about this game that I wouldn't learn from experience.
Message was edited by: karlw at Jun 18, 2006 7:08 PM
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 20, 2006, 9:06 AM
Damn straight Karlw! You hold your own, represent us young turks! The process that you are undertaking right now is great! The top pente players have done this exact quest except have done it within them selves and to see you verbalizing it excites me...I wouldn't expect anything less from my apprentice. Also I am sorry I haven't been able to log on lately I haven't had access to the internet. Anyways keep up the good work and hope to play you soon with your new understanding. -Awakening
Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 22, 2006, 8:43 PM
we better play soon awakening! im getting antsy...
And one final revision before we get down to business:
Turns out that while distance from the keystone is the best way to classify openings, it is not the only way, so we must do a little rearranging based on certain traits that moves in a group have in common.
Group A: K9, L9, M9, N9
If white answers all four of these openings with N10 (and he should), the positions that follow are very similar (two identical pairs, actually), and lead to a very distinct level of play between two strong players. These openings are based on destroying white from the inside, trying to interfere with white's plans by building an open 3 early or blocking all his initiative.
Group B: M10, N10, M8, N8
These four openings might not look like they have much in common distancewise, but after black's 2nd and 3rd moves a common thread arises: In these games, unlike games in group A, black usually plays not to divert the keystone (in two of the openings it's not even possible,) but to build up his own momentum while at the same time defending white's. This is my favorite group right here.
Group C: O9, O8, N7, O7
These are the far openings, which are mostly based on the threat of building an open three which white must make a pair to block, then threatening that pair. I call this tactic "diversion," and it is a very important principle of openings, because white is unable to build momentum without the keystone. Now i must define momentum.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 23, 2006, 10:49 PM
Okay let's define some terms!
Forcing move: A move which, if unanswered, leads to certain victory for the mover. Examples include: Extension to 4, Stretch 4, Split 4, Stretch 5, Split 5, Threat of 5th capture.
Initiative: The person who has control of the game has the initiative. White begins with the initiative because black must play defense if white knows how to build momentum. When a player has the initiative, it is in his best interest to keep the initiative by playing forcing moves and making trias. Plays by him are either sente, meaning they retain the initiative, or gote, meaning they give up the initiative.
There are two kinds of initiative, simple initiative and self-sustaining initiative. Simple initiative is exemplified by the open 3. Playing an open 3 gives you initiative, because although it's not a forcing move, the other player has to answer after he runs out of forcing moves otherwise he will lose in 2 moves (Open 4 -> victory). But after he blocks that open 3, you can extend or stretch, then...nothing. Simple initiative runs out.
Self-sustaining initiative, on the other hand, if played properly, never runs out, and 99% of the time leads to a win. It is such an important pente concept that I give it a new name:
Momentum: Momentum is probably the dominant concept of pente openings. It is a 3-stone shape that, although not giving the player any immediate initiative, creates so much momentum that, if not properly blocked by the other player, leads to certain victory.
Momentum is important because it is what forces black to play defense in the opening. If black ignores white, momentum will make him pay, because even though white has the 2nd move restriction, he can still build momentum in his first 3 moves. There are countless ways for white to build momentum, but the best way is to begin with either a 2J (K10 to N10), 3J (K10 to O10), BJ (K10 to N12), or Special Jump (SJ) (K10 to N11). Possible 3rd moves:
For the 2J: The L, the Hat(K10-N10-L12 shape). For the 3J: The V. For the BJ: The L, the Broken Wing. For the SJ: The Capital T (K10-N11-N9 shape), the Lowercase T (K10-N11-M12 shape).
Now, considering white's potential to create momentum and black's ability to defend it, I would rank these 6 shapes as follows: L > Hat > Cap T > Wing > V > Low T. The 3J also has the ability to make the post 3, so it's still a good opening. The 2J can make a stretch 3 right away for immediate initiaitive, that along with the top 2 momentum shapes makes it the strongest 2nd move for white.
2J > BJ > 3J = SJ is my ranking for white's 2nd move.
This is something black needs to take into consideritation: The best openings for black are the ones that are strongest against the 2-point jump. This is why Group A isn't quite as strong as Group B and C, altough it is still a strong group of openings because black has thousands more options for defense in any position than the B and C openings.
I believe that of the 4 possible 2nd moves, one is better than the others for each group. These are my findings:
Group A -> 2-Point Jump. Group B -> 3-Point or Special Jump. Group C -> Broken Wing Jump.
This doesn't mean that for any group C opening, all BJ's are better than all 2J's 3J's and SJ's, just that it seems to me that the BJ is best suited for defending the Group C openings. I will next explain why I prefer these openings for these groups (it is rather complicated).
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: Formalization of Pente Opening Theory
Posted:
Jun 29, 2006, 4:46 AM
You don't discribe some important things in Pente Fukumi and Adzi and Forms. Fukumi - Renju name of possible fork 4-3 Adzi - like in Go, Shogi you ignore Atari , because of initiative and development. Forms - winning forms like treangle . Read my booklet - probably you can understand what I said
