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Topic: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Replies: 10   Views: 28,676   Pages: 1   Last Post: Nov 20, 2002, 7:27 PM by: dweebo

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progambler

Posts: 79
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Lenexa, KS
Age: 42
B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 9, 2002, 4:32 AM

DSG Tourney #4 will be split into two sections. Mark Mammel will be director of the A-section, which is open to all players. I (Gary Barnes) will be director of the B-section, which is only open to players rated below 1600 at Dweebo’s with a few exceptions. Players will only be able to play in one of the sections. Joe King will be co-director of both sections.

There is currently a debate about which format to use for the B-section. The following is only a small bit of information about both formats. A detailed description of the formats will be forthcoming within a week or so. All comments are welcome, but please reserve your final opinion until the detailed comparison is posted.


Proposal #1, Swiss-system (similar to type used in many A thru D-class chess tourneys):
1. All players play all rounds. 4-6 total rounds depending on # of players. 4-game matches.
2. Random pairings first round. In subsequent rounds, players play someone with the same # of total wins in the tourney.
3. Top 4 with most wins in regular ‘season’ advance to single elimination playoffs. Winner of playoffs is champion.
4. Vacation time allowed for one round (except final and play-off) if requested in advance of tourney.

This format is my personal favorite for sectioned tournaments. It allows maximum action for everyone, regardless of ability. With the format of the first 3 tourneys, if you were eliminated in rounds 2 or 3, there was a long wait for the next tournament. Here, players usually get to play someone of equal ability by round 3 instead of potentially getting eliminated because they happened to be paired with strong players, yet they still have the potential to finish in the top 4 if they get hot for the last few rounds.


Proposal #2, Double elimination (similar to one used in DSG#1 & DSG#2):
1. Standard double elimination format with 2 brackets. Players drop to bracket 2 when they lose their first match and are eliminated when they have lost 2 matches. Matches continue until someone wins by 2 games, i.e. 2-0, 3-1, etc. No ties allowed.
2. Random pairings first round. In subsequent rounds, players play a somewhat randomly placed player in the same bracket.
3. The last player standing without having lost 2 matches is champion.

Some players are fond of this format because they are familiar with it and it is simple to understand. The problem is that there is no chance to redeem yourself if you are unfortunate enough to have pairings with strong opponents in the first 2 rounds or you happen to have played poorly, which will make for a long wait for the next tournament. Also, the matches can go much longer than 4 games because someone must lead by 2 games.


All comments are welcome!


Thanks,
Gary Barnes
(Progambler)


wrhino23

Posts: 17
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Coachella, CA
Age: 39
Home page
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 9, 2002, 10:21 PM

I would not mind trying Proposal #1, Swiss-system. Its sounds like Pro sports. You play a season of games and then the best advances to the playoffs. Because there are 4 to 6 rounds you get to play a lot more players in the tournament if you are a beginner or arrange it where there are division and everyone in their division get to play each other.

Can I add my own Proposal.
Proposal #3. I would like to see everyone play a round (2 games) with every player in the tournament then take the top 4-8 players for the playoff championship. That way we all get to play one another and there is no questions to who advances. Just all your total wins like they do in Hockey. It may take a little longer but we will all have fun player each other.

Harvey
wrhino23



dufus

Posts: 9
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 10, 2002, 12:38 AM

being that we will be having many tourneys, i believe that we should try different formats to see which the majority like best.

thx
da dufus

progambler

Posts: 79
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Lenexa, KS
Age: 42
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 10, 2002, 8:36 AM

Wrhino -

Interesting thought and one that would be great to do. Unfortunately, there are just too many players in the tournaments for them all to play one another, and some players may be only available 1-2 times/week. Although the directors could probably handle tracking everything, many players would complain about the effort that it would take to track who they've played and follow up on one's that they haven't.

For example, last tournament, we had 50 players. We would like to shoot for 75 in this one, of which an estimated 45 or so would be in the B-section. It would just be too difficult for everyone to coordinate playing with everyone else.

A variation of what you are talking about is played at itsyourturn.com, which is turn-based. It is multi-round, round-robin, 4 players/section, 2 games/player vs. all other players in section. Top player (plus tied for top) in each section advance to next round until there is one left. This would still be tricky for players to coordinate matches with 3 different players in real-time play plus a player could still be eliminated after one round.

We really appreciate your input. Keep the comments coming!


Gary

cicerolove

Posts: 46
Registered: Feb 1, 2002
From: Little Elm
Age: 32
Home page
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 10, 2002, 8:46 PM

I just wanted to offer my help in making an online tracking system for the players of the tournaments. If the directors wanted to give me the list of players and who was playing and what not, I could set it up on playpente.com so that people could report their games and see who they need to play, who's won the other games and so on. It wouldn't be too hard. Perhaps in this way it would eliminate the coordination problems suggested by Harvey's plan.

dweebo

Posts: 1,032
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Powell, OH
Age: 37
Home page
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 10, 2002, 9:18 PM

Thank you for your offer cicero! I have been trying to find the time to automate the tournaments and provide such a tracking system. Eventually I should get it all setup, in this tournament I am taking the first small step and implementing an automatic signup screen.

In Tournament 4, with the help I'm getting from the tourney directors, we should be able to keep the "Tournament results" page updated with the previous rounds matches and upcoming rounds matches (I wasn't able to keep up in Tournament 3).

Are you a java programmer by any chance? If so I would appreciate your help in this area or with other modifications to the site.

Thanks

Pente Rocks!
cicerolove

Posts: 46
Registered: Feb 1, 2002
From: Little Elm
Age: 32
Home page
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 10, 2002, 9:57 PM

Unfortunately, I am not a java programmer (which is why it is taking me so long scrolling through the code available from sourceforge). I do mostly Perl/PHP/Python type stuff in my job. But I know you are using a mySQL database so perhaps the tourney stuff could be done in PHP right now and then you can migrate it to Java as you have the time. Just a thought. If there are other things I can do to help, please drop me a line I will do whatever I can.

wrhino23

Posts: 17
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Coachella, CA
Age: 39
Home page
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 11, 2002, 4:59 AM

Gary,

Thanks for the feed back on my comments.

I would like to see where a tournament is based on a series of games with every player before you are eliminated. Maybe in the near future you guys can create a season where we all can play one another to decide who makes it to the playoff round. I do understand that it would be a major feat to control, gathering all the games for tracking, handle all the delays that might occur and the time span it would take to complete.

Thanks again,
wrhino23
Harvey

dufus

Posts: 9
Registered: Jun 30, 2002
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 15, 2002, 7:51 AM


also the timelimit for game forfeiture might be extended to perhaps 15min. during the tourney. this would give players with slow pcs like mine to get back on in case of freeze-up and such.
thx dufus


dmitriking

Posts: 375
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
Age: 40
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 15, 2002, 2:30 PM

I was under the impression that an option to "keep waitiing" had been added, but I haven't been in a game where my opponent got disconnected yet since then, so I am not sure...

dweebo

Posts: 1,032
Registered: Dec 16, 2001
From: Powell, OH
Age: 37
Home page
Re: B-section format comparison for DSG#4
Posted: Nov 20, 2002, 7:27 PM

There is no visible button that says "keep waiting". However, if you leave the popup window open (don't choose cancel or force forfeit) you can wait as long as you want. If the player comes back and the popup is still visible, the game will start up again.

For this tournament I am not making the rule that the timeout period is 15 minutes simply because the server has no way of knowing if the players are in a tournament game or not (and can't adjust the timeout from 5 to 15). In the future this may change when additional tournament support is added.

Pente Rocks!
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