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Pente vs. Chess
Posted:
Aug 24, 2010, 1:09 AM
Hi, I'm aleph_1, aka Rick. I'm relatively new here. The "aleph_1" comes from Cantor's theory of the higher infinities, one of the few intellectual systems that I think competes with Pente in elegance combined with intellectual fascination.
After a long time dabbling with chess, I've spent the last year or so devoting most of my spare time to Pente. Why? I'm a "list" person, so here, for what they're worth, are my
Top Ten Reasons For Preferring Pente to Chess
1. Chess: Relatively complex/contrived pieces reflecting hierarchical social classes Pente: Simple and natural pieces - black and white stones
2. Chess: Many rules, relatively complex/contrived Pente: Very few rules, and they're simple and natural
3. Chess: Entropic - fewer pieces as the game proceeds Pente: Negentropic - more pieces and complexity as the game proceeds
4. Chess: Games are usually time-consuming Pente: Games are usually relatively fast
5. Chess: 64 places to play Pente: 361 places to play
6. Chess: Often a draw, especially at the higher levels Pente: Never a draw, even at the highest level
7. Chess: Pieces are constrained to move toward a clash in the center Pente: Placement of pieces and area of play is unconstrained
8. Chess: Computer analysis is beginning to dominate the game. Pente: Computer analysis has a long way to go.
9. Chess: Most of the possible good opening variations are well-known. Pente: New good opening variations and novelties are continually being discovered.
10. Chess: Simple simulation of medieval warfare Pente: Simple simulation of the evolution of complexity in the universe - beginning from the void, emerging from one point, gradually building in complexity.
Many of what I see as the virtues of Pente relative to chess are shared by the game of Go. But Go games take a *long* time. Go on a smaller (9x9) board is nice game, though. As with Pente, a surprising amount of complexity and depth can quickly arise from the very simple rules and pieces.
I'm interested in any reactions, and looking forward to playing those of you that I haven't yet played.
Re: Pente vs. Chess
Posted:
Aug 24, 2010, 12:38 PM
Hi Rick
Thanks for introducing this topic, it interests me quite a bit too. I have put some responses below to your reasons for preferring Pente over chess, and a couple of my own points too.
Top Ten Reasons For Preferring Pente to Chess
1. Chess: Relatively complex/contrived pieces reflecting hierarchical social classes Pente: Simple and natural pieces - black and white stones
YEP
2. Chess: Many rules, relatively complex/contrived Pente: Very few rules, and they're simple and natural
YEP
3. Chess: Entropic - fewer pieces as the game proceeds Pente: Negentropic - more pieces and complexity as the game proceeds
Approximately true. Chess starts with low complexity (compared to later in the game) and then increases dramatically. While the entropy in chess from piece loss is correlated, it is only loosely so. Due to the opening up of the board that results from captures, the potentialities increase and the complexities with it. The potential paths to be examined and the move sequences available in chess, even at low piece numbers, are much greater than Pente imo
True, Pente becomes more complex as the game progresses, but this does not always follow a linear relationship to move-count. Often there are simplifying moves, and forced lines leading to wins that resolve the complexity to virtually nothing.
Entropic analysis of abstract games is fascinating. I would not say that for me it is a basis of preference though.
4. Chess: Games are usually time-consuming Pente: Games are usually relatively fast
I agree. For me time is important which is why I don't play much chess these days. Also, I used to study chess between 6 and 10 hours per week and play competition for another 4 hours. I don't have that time anymore. Pente is just a handy time frame and you can get relatively good at it without committing your life to the pursuit.
5. Chess: 64 places to play Pente: 361 places to play
Let's instead compare usage of those places to play.
Chess has 64 places to play but each of those places can be occupied by almost any of the pieces multiple times during the game. When you consider this it effectively multiplies the number of squares several times over. In a 40 move per side chess game, that equals 80 placement squares, plus the starting location squares, plus the traversal squares which might add another 400 or more squares. Effectively this might mean a square usage of maybe 600+ in chess. In pente, how many of those 361 places to play are typically used? 40 or so?
However, I could not prefer pente over chess on this basis, or vice versa. They are just different.
6. Chess: Often a draw, especially at the higher levels Pente: Never a draw, even at the highest level
This is true of course. However, as frustrating as a drawn chess game can be, it can also be a brilliant battle. In tournaments, often the leader only needs to play for a draw to win the tourny. The challenger knows this and often chooses a very daring and aggressive style to counter the leader playing for a draw. These games can be amongst the most fascinating.
So, again I could not base a preference for pente on this.
7. Chess: Pieces are constrained to move toward a clash in the center Pente: Placement of pieces and area of play is unconstrained
There is some directionality in chess, yes. And it is often a key strategy to dominant your centre, but it is not always so. In pente though you start in the centre in every game whether you want to or not, and then expand outwards. But what is the relative merrit of this feature? Is this really a basis to prefer one game over the other?
8. Chess: Computer analysis is beginning to dominate the game. Pente: Computer analysis has a long way to go.
It is definitely good to be able to focus your attention on a game like Pente where humans still currently hold sway. But I should make the point though, that if the same degree of computer analysis was applied to Pente as has been to Chess, Pente would have been completely dominated by computers 25 years ago.
9. Chess: Most of the possible good opening variations are well-known. Pente: New good opening variations and novelties are continually being discovered.
It is true that the knowledge base of Chess is absolutely massive, and one of the reasons that so much study is required just to play at an expert level let alone at a Master, IM or GM level. But this does not mean that good opening variations are not being discovered all the time. The main thing that frustrates serious players is that the computer now plays such a big part in finding and testing new variations, and that at the highest level it has become a battle somewhat over who has the best IT support.
This for me, is currently good a reason to chose between the two games.
10. Chess: Simple simulation of medieval warfare Pente: Simple simulation of the evolution of complexity in the universe - beginning from the void, emerging from one point, gradually building in complexity.
This last point is the most interesting. I love it when I meet someone who thinks about the same nerdy things as I do lol! Complexity Theory, game theory, emergent properties, its all there. Having said that it is just a few stones on a board and the corollary to the development of our Universe, though appealing to those of us so disposed, is superficial imo.
This feature is not enough for me to chose one game over the other.
Finally, to add a few of my own points...
A. The tension level in pente is high from the outset. Often Chess games (except for early gambits) have a slow build up of pressure and excitement. I like the fact that you can get a high from Pente from the get-go.
B. The top players in the game are more accessible in Pente. It's still a cottage industry compared to chess and most of the top players seem at least to a degree keen to support the lesser lights.
C. The greater imbalance between White and Black in Pente is a both a strength and a weakness. It's strength is that it is essentially the essence of the game itself to overcome that imbalance. It's weakness is that this goal is ultimately futile. In Chess, the relatively high level of balance between the two sides results, as you mentioned, in frequent draws.
D. The simplicity of the rules of Pente, means that it is a quick game to learn. This means that it does not take most people long to get to a level of play where they can join in to the general community and mix it up. With Chess, the overwhelming majority of people (99.9%) never even get to the point where they can play a solid game imo.
E. Chess can be really hard work just to play at a moderate standard. This is due to its age, the knowledge base and the sheer number of people who play at a high level. The average level of play in Pente today compared to what it could be is probably quite low imo. Therefore you can play at a moderate level without years of study and practice. So moderate level Pente is not hard work.
F. last but not least, I just like the people I have met playing pente.
I agree with most of your ten points, but if you replace pente with go the contrast is even higher for 2, 3, okay not 4, 5 (the periphery of the 19x19 board is rarely played on in pente, but a vital part of go), 7, 8, and 10. i play pente because it is more accessible, but when i retire a gazillionaire at 30 i will devote the rest of my life to mastering go.
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: Pente vs. Chess
Posted:
Aug 25, 2010, 2:11 PM
Excellent points, Alison. I probably should have just stuck with a Top Five or Six list instead of stretching it. But there's just something about a Top Ten list ... - aleph_1
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Re: Pente vs. Chess
Posted:
Aug 25, 2010, 2:14 PM
karlw - I've barely begun looking into Go, but I can already see it's worthy of devoting a retired life to. Sounds like you have a fine plan. Let me know if you'd recommend any good books on it.
Really guys, the best game has to be Twister ! 1) Twister is less complex in the openning, but gets more pieces in the middle game and the end game gets really complex when even more pieces are added with essential body oils and some spirits.
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Re: Pente vs. Chess
Posted:
Aug 27, 2010, 1:57 PM
i was waiting for alison's post before responding (had a feeling she would). if there was a human resources here, jhs would be getting called in to it i think.
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
I used to play chess in high school. The thing which I prefer most about Pente is that games don't drag on interminably once you are behind. I recall chess games where I was down a bit in terms of material and I would sit on the edge of my seat for 20 minutes or so waiting either to lose or for the opponent to make a blunder. In Pente, generally you don't have to wait long after a mistake to have a clean slate. Less gut wrenching, for me anyway.
Retired from TB Pente, but still playing live games & exploring variants like D, poof and boat
