On "Black" and "white"...
Posted:
May 9, 2009, 6:57 PM
For some time now, when discussing games or strategy, I have felt a vague uneasiness in referring to player1 as "white" and player2 as "black", as is the long-standing convention in Pente. Statements such as "White has an inherent advantage", "White should always win" or "Black is at a disadvantage" have long struck me as anachronistic, ethnocentric terms, but in the past I have always dismissed my own misgivings as being perhaps oversensitive to the concept of political correctness. I mean, this is the way we've always referred to the two sides of a Pente game, right? Furthermore, no one else I've spoken to or chatted with here has ever shown any indication that they see any racial overtones in those terms (perhaps that fact is itself indicative of a certain attitude, but we'll let that go for now).
So I kept my concerns to myself, but quietly began referring to the players as "Player1" and "Player2". It's a bit longer to type, yes, but I felt more at ease with those terms. For a while I tried using "P1" and "P2", but then I had a discussion in which the other person confused my use of "P2" for the board coordinate P2, so I went back to "Player1" and "Player2". Still, I never said anything to anyone about my concerns, up until now.
"Given your prior reticence, what seminal event prompts this post now, Smeef?", you might ask (no, you didn't ask; that's why I had to ask it for you). Well, let me set the stage: There we were, a group of friends at a table casually playing unrated round-robin, when one friend peeled off to go play a rated set elsewhere. After some time, he returned, and we (those who had remained at the casual table) inquired as to the results of the rated set. The response given was that he had split the rated set with his opponent, adding that "we both beat our blacks".
"We both beat our blacks". Let that sink in for a moment...
I know that the player (who shall remain anonymous) meant that statement purely as reportage anent the results of the rated set, but still, I was privately aghast, and momentarily rendered speechless. While I was considering whether to insert some wry (or perhaps snarky) retort into the conversation, the moment passed, the conversation moved on, and the opportunity for a timely comment was lost. However, somewhere deep inside my psyche I felt that a line had been crossed, and I knew I had to speak out. This post, my friends, is me speaking out, as I cannot, will not, remain silent any longer.
So, what's to be done? Is the Pente.org community ready for a frank discussion about the racial implications of its terminology? How many Caucasian players here have ever even considered how those terms might make another person feel? Shall we eliminate the "P" column from the board (as we have the "I" column) in order to facilitate the use of "P1" and "P2" to denote the respective sides (and if we did, would that do violence to the integrity of the game database)? Am I just being over-sensitive, and taking political correctness too far? You tell me...
For myself, I have decided never again to refer to player1 as "white" or player2 as "black". I will accept that I will have to type two extra characters in discussions about moves or strategy, but to me that is a small price to pay to avoid inadvertently offending someone, and to promote the awareness that "speech matters".
In all the chats I've witnessed or participated in over the years here at Pente.org, in all the forum posts, in all the private messages, never once have I read an overtly racist comment, or even any subtle hint of racist attitudes (unless the use of these two words count as a "subtle hint of racist attitudes"). Perhaps that's because the game appeals to thinkers, and for the majority of the world at large "thinking" is too much like "work". I don?t know, but it seems we Pente-heads as a community have a choice before us; we either find a way to get past this lexiconic throwback to the nineteenth century, or else we continue to "beat our blacks"...
Peace!
Message was edited by: smeefpeef at (on?) May 12, 2009 2:44 PM, to correct punctuation. Why are some copy-and-pasted parentheses interpreted as question marks and others not? Arrghh!
Message was edited by: smeefpeef (on) May 15, 2009 (at) 3:48 AM - just to change one freakin' question mark back into the quotation mark is was supposed to be in the first place. Grrrr!
Message was edited by: smeefpeef at May 15, 2009 4:48 AM - to fix the truncated title after my last edit! (seething)
Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 9, 2009, 11:10 PM
You are being overly politically correct. I take that back, "overly politically correct" does not fully capture how little of a deal this is. I actually find it hard to believe that someone actually cares about this. It's almost like you're going out of your way to try to be offended. You know people are referring to the color of the stones and that there is nothing racist about it, so why are you complaining? White and black are colors, and there are many things that have those colors. You are going to have to live with the fact that not everything that is white or black is referring to race.
Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 9, 2009, 11:37 PM
players are called black and white because the stones they play with are black and white.
it is a convention in most board games with two opposing sides to have their pieces be colored black and white (chess, checkers, go, pente, reversi, etc.) mainly because they are two of the easiest colors to distinguish, but also no doubt because of the age-old tradition of using black and white to symbolize two universal forces in permanent conflict (yin and yang, night and day).
The fact that "black" and "white" have taken on an additional incidental racial connotation has no significance in the vocabulary of board games other than a purely coincidental one. any racial implications in saying "i beat his black" or "white is the stronger color" are entirely subjective and have no bearing on the practical and completely innocuous nomenclature of the game.
do you get angry when people ask for their coffee black, or talk about black comedies?
-karl
It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.
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Re: On
Posted:
May 9, 2009, 11:50 PM
words are just words. its the meaning and context that matters. chess is standard to have white go first. in pente the player to go first will win in perfect play. white usually beats black in pente is a fact. and its not a racist thing at all, unless someone wants to make it one by adding in a un-needed context to imply such.
let me point out that we have a black president now. i think the time of these hyper active sensitivities of racisim should stop and be left in the past. its time for man kind to move forward.
to hold on to these sensitivites is to keep racisim alive. just let it go. the world seems to be moving forward finally in this reguard.
i have 2 black cousins that live in hawaii. and i dont find offense to say both whites won, or both blacks got beat.
are you going to petition to the chess community and ask that they change thier colors that theyve been using for hundreds of years since the dark ages?
feel free to type player 1 or player 2. but dont go telling other players you think they are being racist for saying we beat each others blacks. youll find that other players will become even more offended than you are for such accusations i think.
and im not saying you are, i realize you admit that you dont think they mean it in a racist way when they say it.
and,....what if a player says,..we beat each others whites.
should i be offended by this? should i be like "who you callin a cracker"!!?
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
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Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 11, 2009, 2:07 AM
But, then again on the other hand. wa, wa wa! ----------------------------------
People might be harrassed on a subjective basis. Maybe not even take conscious offense while secretly seething on the unconscious level.
It might be a good yoga to play at one of them other pente sites half time, where black is offense and white is defense and thereby get a good balance of equal colors getting worked over.
I'm not sure what I'm talking about but I hope this helps.
-------------- Movin' to Montana soon . . . yipee yi yo kiyeah
Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 12, 2009, 11:44 PM
Wow, buncha stuff to respond to here, so let's dive in....
Skanadron:
"overly politically correct" does not fully capture how little of a deal this is.",
...but apparently it's enough of a deal to warrant a one-paragraph diatribe denouncing "deals" that don't meet your criteria for significance...
"...like you're going out of your way to try to be offended." ... "so why are you complaining?"
I am neither offended nor complaining, Skanadron; I am going out of my way to try to make sure that I am not causing offense. What did you go out of your way for?
---
Karlw:
"players are called black and white because the stones they play with are black and white."
Oh. Never mind then...
..any racial implications... ...are entirely subjective and have no bearing on the practical and completely innocuous nomenclature of the game.
Was I somehow unclear in this regard, my tautological friend? The subjectivity you refer to speaks to the crux of my original (albeit long-winded) question, which is "Are we causing offense when we use such terms?"
...do you get angry when people ask for their coffee black...
Again, it seems point-missage runs rampant. I'm not angry, just asking...
---
Zoeyk:
...its not a racist thing at all, unless someone wants to make it one by adding in a un-needed context to imply such.
Un-needed? Is it? How would you know if it's needed or not? How do you know how your words are received?
"...let me point out that we have a black president now".
LOL - "What you mean "we", white man"? "We" in the Pente community have no such thing.
...to hold on to these sensitivites is to keep racisim alive".
I must disagree; awareness of potential sensitivity and inadvertently hurtful speech is crucial to curing this cancer called racism once and for all. Hence my post.
...for hundreds of years since the dark ages?
Ha ha! You did that on purpose, didn't you?
...but dont go telling other players you think they are being racist for saying we beat each others blacks... ...and im not saying you are, i realize you admit that you dont think they mean it in a racist way when they say it.
Certainly not Zoey, and thank you for recognizing that. I'm not telling anyone that I think they are racist for using such terms, I'm just asking them to consider how their words might come across to someone that doesn't look just like them...
...what if a player says,..we beat each others whites. should i be offended by this? should i be like "who you callin a cracker"!!?"
Your question here assumes a level playing field, where none exists. The same basic point is often brought up when white people discuss the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP); they might claim there is a double standard, that if there was an NAAWP it would be immediately labeled a "racist organization" (and they would be correct about the labeling, but wrong about the double standard).
The difference lies in that white people have a horrible, centuries-old history of suppressing and oppressing virtually all other races on the planet, with blacks and indigenous Americans on the receiving end of the most heinous examples of that oppression. Don't think for a minute that "it's all in the past", either; when was the last time you were pulled over for "Driving While Black"? That's what I thought...
---
Gaylen:
...People might be harrassed on a subjective basis. Maybe not even take conscious offense while secretly seething on the unconscious level.
Thank you, Gaylen. Apparently it takes a dental floss tycoon (You guys are gonna have to dig deep for that reference, I bet) to state succinctly what I've been laboring at with a thousand words.
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Re: On
Posted:
May 13, 2009, 2:39 AM
Zoeyk:
...its not a racist thing at all, unless someone wants to make it one by adding in a un-needed context to imply such.
Un-needed? Is it? How would you know if it's needed or not? How do you know how your words are received?
Seriously smeef? examples; we beat each others blacks (refering to pente stones) = not racist context.
we beat each others blacks + plus something about a whip and a noose = racist context.
get my point?
getting offended because one misunderstands the meanings of the english language is the price for not educating ones self in english. so if this is the reason they get offended, then thats their fault. not the fault of the person who is using terms correctly.
"...let me point out that we have a black president now".
LOL - "What you mean "we", white man"? "We" in the Pente community have no such thing.
dude you serious? lol, i meant "we" as in americans, the people of this nation that pay taxes ext. me and you are both standing on american soil are we not? your just tryin to start stuff up outa nothin here arent you? your just lookin for a reason.
...to hold on to these sensitivites is to keep racisim alive".
I must disagree; awareness of potential sensitivity and inadvertently hurtful speech is crucial to curing this cancer called racism once and for all. Hence my post.
No, my point is bringing up sensitivities where none should be is keeping it alive. inadvertently hurtful speech?? show me a black person who thinks its hurtful and maybe ill find some sence in this nonsence. does it hurt you smeef??? how?your white arent you? i am so confused right now as to why your are talking about something as silly as this.
.
..for hundreds of years since the dark ages?
Ha ha! You did that on purpose, didn't you?
No,..i didnt,.. i assumed chess was invented back in the era called dark ages, no pun intended.
...but dont go telling other players you think they are being racist for saying we beat each others blacks... ...and im not saying you are, i realize you admit that you dont think they mean it in a racist way when they say it.
Certainly not Zoey, and thank you for recognizing that. I'm not telling anyone that I think they are racist for using such terms, I'm just asking them to consider how their words might come across to someone that doesn't look just like them...
Ok,.. first of all, if they get offended then they need to get a grip. secondly,..its internet ,.. how do they know what the other player looks like? how do you know im not black?....
...what if a player says,..we beat each others whites. should i be offended by this? should i be like "who you callin a cracker"!!?"
Your question here assumes a level playing field, where none exists. The same basic point is often brought up when white people discuss the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP); they might claim there is a double standard, that if there was an NAAWP it would be immediately labeled a "racist organization" (and they would be correct about the labeling, but wrong about the double standard).
The difference lies in that white people have a horrible, centuries-old history of suppressing and oppressing virtually all other races on the planet, with blacks and indigenous Americans on the receiving end of the most heinous examples of that oppression. Don't think for a minute that "it's all in the past", either; when was the last time you were pulled over for "Driving While Black"? That's what I thought...
Oh boy you just Opened Pandoras Box there smeef,... have you any idea how ugly this thread can get if i argue this?
actually you know what smeef,... heres how this is goina go my friend,...
im goina continue to use the word black in reference to Player2's color of stone. and thats that.
and if you want to go on a quest to defend the black comunity then i can google you several websites where you can run rampid about this subject, this is a Pente site. and the terminology isnt goina change.
Again "Black" in reference to Player 2's stone color is NOT racist. let it be known...
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 13, 2009, 3:56 AM
"..i meant "we" as in americans, the people of this nation..." (emphasis mine)
People come here from all over the world, and I'd bet some of them do not have black presidents. But you weren't thinking of them, were you?
"sensitivities where none should be.."
Agreed that "none should be". But is it so unfathomable to suppose that, after a long history of unfair behavior from one group towards another, that some "sensitivities where none should be" might, um, "be" anyway?
"how do you know im not black?"
"im goina continue to use the word black in reference to Player2's color of stone. and thats that"
Fine, Zoey; do what you want. I just asked for a conversation about it, taking the position that awareness of potentially hurtful speech might help us be just plain "nicer" people. You seem to come down firmly in favor of insensitivity, as is your prerogative.
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Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 13, 2009, 5:06 AM
sigh,..look all this stuff aside smeef i like you, your a good guy. lets just drop this. i think every one has stated thier sides. we just arent having the same perspective, hope that doesnt stop us from being friends.
~z
Scire hostis animum - Intelligere ludum - Nosce te ipsum - Prima moventur conciliat - Nolite errare
Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 13, 2009, 5:56 AM
Your question here assumes a level playing field, where none exists. The same basic point is often brought up when white people discuss the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People (NAACP); they might claim there is a double standard, that if there was an NAAWP it would be immediately labeled a "racist organization" (and they would be correct about the labeling, but wrong about the double standard).
The difference lies in that white people have a horrible, centuries-old history of suppressing and oppressing virtually all other races on the planet, with blacks and indigenous Americans on the receiving end of the most heinous examples of that oppression. Don't think for a minute that "it's all in the past", either; when was the last time you were pulled over for "Driving While Black"? That's what I thought...
So you're judging me based on something my ancestors did something to your ancestors that happened before I was born, and that I had no control over. So black people are allowed to have organizations but white people are not? How is that equal? How is that fair? Are you saying that I am racist for believing that all people deserve that same rights regardless of skin color?
Skanadron; I am going out of my way to try to make sure that I am not causing offense.
I am willing to bet that your statements made with the intention of making sure you don't cause offense has caused more offense than the original issue.
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Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 13, 2009, 10:31 AM
wow.... ..... what silliness.... if you take language out of context it can mean almost anything....
for example, i usually hear sexual double meanings with pente conversations........ positions, counterthrusts, splits, openings, talk of powerful moves and control (i could go on but..., alas, a weak sense of personal dignity forbids it)....
what about people who are offended by sexual innuendo?... should we adapt to all of that so they feel more comfortable? Or will they just hear what they fear no matter what the words?
i've never heard the racial component in all of my long and fun 8 months of pente play (nor in chess or Othello).... yes i'm that naive.... it took me half an hour and a friend saying it a few times for me to picture two white guys physically abusing each other's African-blooded people-property in some sick game of human exploitation.... it was so unexpected i laughed... it was funny.... that?s right? I laughed out loud?..
that made me think the racism could be in hearing the racial version (and perhaps laughing), not inherently within the words of the specific line in question.... (btw?i like to define racism as a view of the world that distinguishes people into superior and inferior races........ so to be hardcore? just hearing the white and black words as labels of race is not enough to make it racist in my mind, it becomes racist when you imagine the black man as less valuable than a white man inherently and getting what he deserves ) [now, are there any ladies who are offended by my man centrist language? Did I leave them out??. women apparently, according to the language I used, could argue they aren?t even worth mentioning, maybe I should say person?.. why didn?t I imagine two white girls beating each others black girls?. maybe we shouldn?t use the words man/woman anymore, because it makes females (ha) a secondary variation on males?. but I could slide down a slippery slope of sensitivity?.]
?.trying to imagine some a-hole delivering this line with actual superior minded, mean spirited intent is wild... that would be truly racist.... I would applaud smeef?s moral high ground?.
However,?.. if someone believes/hears that the language of gaming in general and pente in specific reflects the politics of race in the modern world, that person must necessarily and logically (out of intellectual honesty) see the racist meaning as incidental rather than inherent to the language (given the historical context of pente/game evolution)? this means that the offended listener brings the race distinctions to the table and in my mind should therefore conclude that they need to relax and fight the oppressors some other way... rather than trying to change the language of pente which would have no practical benefit to the grand scheme of better race relations in both the US and across the world ..... soooooo.....
Other than giving personal comfort to what i have to assume is a very small minority (minority,, ha!) of dedicated anti-racist language revisionists, changing the basics of pente language for the sake of being sensitive to the sons and daughters of horribly oppressed african-american's is unnecessary.....(black doesn't refer to other white oppressees btw.. sorry my native and latin american friends, and let's not forget about the irish and the chinese...) changing for your own comfort to avoid irritating personal sensitivities is always optional of course, which i think is one of smeef's points.
having said this... i'll never look at the color labels of the stones the same way again.... damn you smeef.... for opening my eyes to this nonissue-issue. now my white guilt is going to screw with my head....
ps.. i wrote this much because this is fascinating....
also? wouldn?t it be cool if you could have personal self-designed stones for donating to the site?? That would kill the white black thing altogether and make it more personal?? and festive I might add?.
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Re: On
Posted:
May 13, 2009, 11:47 AM
I'm in favor of referring to players as p1 and p2, simply because it is less ambiguous. My colors are set differently anyway, so it doesnt matter.
Ever hear the term "passive-aggressive?" Could an example of that be where someone wears their heart on their sleeve, so to speak? Looking for an excuse to claim that their feelers got hurt? Then bullying other people with silly language restrictions (like the "n-word"), only to use the n-word themselves in terms of play or even affection?
Emotional-control freaks come in many forms. Funny thing is, many of them claim to be "liberal." Where's the liberty in nonsensical restrictions to free speech? If someone has a viewpoint, let them speak out. We have enough brainpower and maturity to evaluate what they say for ourselves.
Miss California/USA, Carrie Prejean is a classic victim of this type of emotional tyranny by liberal fascists. Many remember Hitlers propaganda minister Josef Goebbels. Few know that one of the people he was inspired by is Woodrow Wilson. Fascism (state controlled everything) can be right or left-sided.
There are always a few self proclaimed enlighted ones who think they know how the masses should be controlled. Some of those masses might not have as big of a mouth as the politically-correct crowd, but they also tend to be much more serious about fighting for free speech. There will be liberty or there will be death.
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Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 13, 2009, 3:59 PM
hey jack,... as a funny side note... i think it's interesting that Ms. california mentioned free speech rights... but private citizens can censor each other and issue punitive measures for certain language any time they want... if the ms. usa pagent desired, it is totally within it's right's to demand that all entrants conform to a certain social ethic.... even if it's one with which a majority of citizens disagree.... the first amendment protects us from the police power of the state not other freely interacting citizens.... for example, this site could censor all entries of the words black and white and would not be in any danger of limiting our first amendment rights..... not that i want such a thing... just that constitutionally it's fine.... freedom from the control of government is awesome.... i love the USA..... if only we could get more freedom and less government ... hmmmmmm......
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Re: On "Black" and "White"...
Posted:
May 14, 2009, 1:54 AM
I also agree that P1 and P2 is better. Because, all stones games like Go, Renju, Go-moku is ussially played Black as first side. Black calour in East - Power of Evil (dark) start the game and Power of Good (Ligth) answer them. It is really mistake at Pente - the calour , I think because USA players used red and blue stones instead of black and white. As for racism - this is USA problem , other countries has no such history, and have no such problems. The pente community have many countries, why we have to discuss the problems of one country ?
